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The Awful German Language (1880)

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161–170 of 258 posts

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#161

As someone who's had to (or maybe wanted to) learn both english and german, I'd say german has a steeper initial learning curve, but it becomes easier later, whereas english can be easy to get going, but it's difficult to master (obviously the spelling, but also the more advanced use of tenses etc). Regarding Twain's complaints, the biggest lesson I learned from learning german at an older age was: languages are nons…

> trying to find logic in a language will only lead to frustration

Not really. Language as a system is pretty well understood. What appears to be exceptions or non-sense when learning a language often have a simple explanation when looking at the evolution of the said language.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> languages are nonsensical, illogical, and the sooner you stop trying to make sense of it all,the faster you will advance. In the first day of Koine Greek class, the instructor asked who had programming experience. She made a point of stressing, as she would again, that unlike computer languages, human languages show no signs of design, and not to spend any time looking for it. It was good advice.

Well... not that the advice isn't solid, and she's a good teacher for driving this point into the programmer student's minds. But saying no sign is a bit extreme, there is some level of design in any natural language. Icelandic has a committee that decides on new words. Instead of using foreign loan words they largely make up their own new Icelandic words when needed for new concepts. In German the spelling is centra…

This is a tangent, but I have a feeling that the Icelandic reluctance to use loan words is actually slowly killing the language. I know people that acually prefer speakning english to each other despite beeing native Icelandic speakers. Apperently having a conversation about modern life is just too complicated.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted). Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' fo…

Love that last example. I think "to have been being watched" is a bit of a reach though? "To have been observed / under observation" feels more natural. When translating it to french i got to "elle aurait dûe être observée". Incidentally, French has an easier time with this, I think because we have more options there. I couldn't reproduce the quirky structure at all, the flow is just more natural in french.

Trying to translate in French, I came up first with "Il eût fallu qu'elle eût été surveillée", but mostly because of morphological similarity (it's almost the same amount of verbs, right?). It's also just a more literary form of the simpler "Il aurait fallu qu'elle soit surveillée".

That being said, I have trouble to parse the original english sentence so I may be missing subtleties.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted). Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' fo…

> She would have had to have been being watched. Well, now I want to see how this sentence would be translated into all the other major languages! I immediately understand the meaning, but can see why it might be hard for a non native speaker to understand. Are their other languages that can say the same thing as concisely? Google Translate must absolutely butcher this sentence. I just tried Spanish. “Habría tenido q…

One issue that prevents translation is just how much passivity is in that sentence. In other languages, more active grammar is preferred, to the point where trying to construct such passivity on purpose would be nigh unintelligible.

For example, in Hebrew, I would translate the sentence as חייב להיות שמישהו היה צופה בה, which literally translates as "it must be that someone was watching her". Trying a more literal take, היא הייתה חייבת להיות צפויה, not only (by sheer necessity) injects the infinitive tense into the middle of the sentence, but also would just cause a native speaker to ask you in English, "why don't you tell me in English what you're really trying to say?"

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#165

As someone who's had to (or maybe wanted to) learn both english and german, I'd say german has a steeper initial learning curve, but it becomes easier later, whereas english can be easy to get going, but it's difficult to master (obviously the spelling, but also the more advanced use of tenses etc). Regarding Twain's complaints, the biggest lesson I learned from learning german at an older age was: languages are nons…

"Regarding Twain's complaints, the biggest lesson I learned from learning german at an older age was: languages are nonsensical, illogical, and the sooner you stop trying to make sense of it all, the faster you will advance. Children do not learn languages by being analytical and by comparing to what they already know, they learn by just accepting it as it is."

Oh how absolutely true this statement is. As an adult, I find myself deconstructing and atomizing every aspect of the language I'm learning and then reconstructing it bit by bit into English. Not only does this approach slow one's progress down to a crawl but also it limits one's fluency even after one has some basic understanding of the language. [Incidentally, I found this to be more of a problem with French than with German even though I was taught French at a much younger age.]

From my observations, I have noticed that I'm not alone in having adopted this approach, especially so for some of us with a technical bent. It seems to me that we adopt the same analytical approach to learning a language as we do to when learning a technical skill or analyzing some physical phenomenon. Clearly this is the wrong when it comes to learning languages but it's a very difficult habit break. In a similar vein, I recall getting somewhat annoyed when trying to learn Morse code and making no progress. Whilst I was told never to analyze the individual dots and dashes of characters but nevertheless I still did and it was not until I broke this habit (with some difficulty mind you) and that I listened only to the rhythm of the sound of each character that I started to make progress.

Obviously, learning a language is a much more difficult exercise than learning Morse code but the same rules apply in both instances. I recall several decades ago attending a lecture by Noam Chomsky and he made a comment that I have never forgotten as it resonated with me then and ever since. That was that he—a world renown linguist—had difficulty in learning languages—and he cited words to the effect 'that a new language can waft down the corridors of MIT and that most of his colleagues catch it with ease as it passes by—except for him'.

Even at the time of the lecture, I could not help but think that he like me dissects and atomizes a language in ways his colleagues have learned not to do (but perhaps when you're a linguist that approach may be useful—after all, Chomsky is very famous and his colleagues are seemingly very much less so).

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted). Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' fo…

A similar example: As a reply to the question, “what’s the most expensive car on the market?” 1) “I’m guessing it’s some German supercar.” 2) “I would guess it’s some German supercar.” 3) “I guess it’s some German supercar.” As a native speaker, the first two both sound correct to me, and essentially equivalent. The third sounds a little weird, even though it’s grammatically the simplest. I can’t put my finger on exa…

[deleted]

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#167

As someone who's had to (or maybe wanted to) learn both english and german, I'd say german has a steeper initial learning curve, but it becomes easier later, whereas english can be easy to get going, but it's difficult to master (obviously the spelling, but also the more advanced use of tenses etc). Regarding Twain's complaints, the biggest lesson I learned from learning german at an older age was: languages are nons…

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted). Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' fo…

> She would have had to have been being watched.

OK, now I feel like I don't know English. Is this proper English? What does it mean? How is it different from "She would have had to have been watched"? Is the meaning clear to people? I'm scratching my head...

Did you mean "She would have had to have felt like she's being watched"?

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#168

As someone who's had to (or maybe wanted to) learn both english and german, I'd say german has a steeper initial learning curve, but it becomes easier later, whereas english can be easy to get going, but it's difficult to master (obviously the spelling, but also the more advanced use of tenses etc). Regarding Twain's complaints, the biggest lesson I learned from learning german at an older age was: languages are nons…

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted). Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' fo…

"She would have had to have been being watched."

Wow, whoever concocted that mind-twister? That's the sort of problem we students would have given our formal logic lecturer to analyze and draw up into truth tables.

That expression likely exceeds the complexity of an infamous expression (known for its complexity) that was given to us students to analyze, it being 'there is a chance of a possible maybe'.

It hurts my brain just thinking about it, perhaps I'll do so later. ;-)

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted). Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' fo…

> She would have had to have been being watched. OK, now I feel like I don't know English. Is this proper English? What does it mean? How is it different from "She would have had to have been watched"? Is the meaning clear to people? I'm scratching my head... Did you mean "She would have had to have felt like she's being watched"?

I’m a native English speaker here and it’s clear to me. I also think it’s somewhat tricky to express it more succinctly without changing the sentence a fair bit.

Essentially it means “it must have been the case that, at the moment we’re speaking of, someone was watching her.”

Your sentence is slightly different, in that it implies that, in general, someone was watching her during the timeframe we’re talking about, but not necessarily in the exact instant we’re talking about. Also, like the example above, your version could mean she’s someone who in general is watched (like the person who generally lives in Berlin), as opposed to someone being watched right during the instant we’re talking about.

Complicated!

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similar example: As a reply to the question, “what’s the most expensive car on the market?” 1) “I’m guessing it’s some German supercar.” 2) “I would guess it’s some German supercar.” 3) “I guess it’s some German supercar.” As a native speaker, the first two both sound correct to me, and essentially equivalent. The third sounds a little weird, even though it’s grammatically the simplest. I can’t put my finger on exa…

The first two seem consistent as tentative responses to a statement that might contain hyperbole, joke, play on words, double entendre, etc., by maintaining some distance with the statement of supercar-as-fact. In contrast, the third seems to accept the fact outright, and lets the accuracy of the responder assume the uncertainty.

The third reply strips so much away that the tone changes from tentative to apathetic. The third speaker is just doing the bare minimum to keep conversation moving.
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