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The Awful German Language (1880)

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Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#91

Post by ojosilva »

memsom wrote: post #88
ojosilva wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mincemeat used to contain beef. Now, typically, it doesn't, although I recall having mince pie with beef and brandy in Swindon in another life. So maybe this is not good example of English being like a Mark Twain's German schizo language. Gastro-culture changed on it and the folks at Merriem-Webster didn't get the email, that's all.

Are you sure that is it? Meat[1] used to mean food in general. In Swedish, the cognate would be “mat”, and that still means meat, much like hund (hound) means dog, and djyr (deer) means animal. I rather thought that meat in mincemeat was from “minced [sweet]meat”. Or, just “minced food”. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meat#English

Mincemeat is (was) a way to preserve meat using sour, salty, alcoholic preserves and sweet flavoring.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#92

Post by DFHippie »

thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #26

English pronunciation only vaguely follows word spelling and must be memorized in many cases. The classic phrase: "A rough-coated, dough-faced, thoughtful ploughman strode through the streets of Scarborough; after falling into a slough, he coughed and hiccoughed." shows how the "-ough" has no reasonable rule that can be used to determine word pronunciation, despite similar spelling. By comparison, spelling and word p…

You should work "lough" in there somewhere. It has a completely different pronunciation.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#94

Post by andensande »

locallost wrote: post #84

As someone who's had to (or maybe wanted to) learn both english and german, I'd say german has a steeper initial learning curve, but it becomes easier later, whereas english can be easy to get going, but it's difficult to master (obviously the spelling, but also the more advanced use of tenses etc). Regarding Twain's complaints, the biggest lesson I learned from learning german at an older age was: languages are nons…

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted).

Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' form). For instance,

(1) I am walking to the shops.

is clear -- it is occurring in that moment. But what about the subtle difference between (2a) and (2b)?

(2a) I live in Berlin.

(2b) I'm living in Berlin.

To me -- a native English speaker -- (2b) implies that the speaker generally lives elsewhere, while (2a) doesn't. But they're both technically correct if the speaker is, at that moment, a resident of Berlin.

There are more examples I could give. Teaching these sorts of subtleties, though, and mastering them can be very difficult.

A final example that I really like, and one that my syntax lecturer used to use a lot:

(3) She would have had to have been being watched.

Seven (or maybe six, depending on how you view 'watched') verbs in a row! Native English speakers grasp this really intuitively, but non-native speakers may have trouble parsing these into a coherent picture. To illustrate this -- try and gloss this sentence another way while conveying the meaning. If you speak another language, try and translate it! English verbs are hard.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#95

Post by stan_rogers »

ojosilva wrote: post #86
OJFord wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. My favourite one, which I had the er pleasure of trying to explain to a vegetarian unfamiliar with mince pies; which might also be British English-specific is: - mince is meat * but mince *pies* contain no meat - mincemeat is not meat * and is the key ingredient in mince pies - minced meat is meat * and =mince * and could be used in the making…

Mincemeat used to contain beef. Now, typically, it doesn't, although I recall having mince pie with beef and brandy in Swindon in another life. So maybe this is not good example of English being like a Mark Twain's German schizo language. Gastro-culture changed on it and the folks at Merriem-Webster didn't get the email, that's all.

It's more pertinent that meat used to mean any food, and has since been narrowed to what used to be called flesh.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#97

Post by stan_rogers »

ojosilva wrote: post #91
memsom wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that is it? Meat[1] used to mean food in general. In Swedish, the cognate would be “mat”, and that still means meat, much like hund (hound) means dog, and djyr (deer) means animal. I rather thought that meat in mincemeat was from “minced [sweet]meat”. Or, just “minced food”. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meat#English

Mincemeat is (was) a way to preserve meat using sour, salty, alcoholic preserves and sweet flavoring.

Um, no. It's a nice folk etymology, though.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#98

Post by stan_rogers »

pmoriarty wrote: post #14

Unsurprisingly, there are many articles published about "The Awful English Language" , such as: [1], [2], [3] Some examples from [2]: Let's face it -- English is a crazy language. Besides the above, there is no egg in eggplant, nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England or French fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet,…

Of course there's no ham in hamburger - it's a hamburger steak sandwich, where "hamburger" means "of Hamburg" or "Hamburg style". The generic "burger" is a back-formation from hamburger and is the thing that makes no sense.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#99

Post by User23 »

andensande wrote: post #94
locallost wrote: post #84

As someone who's had to (or maybe wanted to) learn both english and german, I'd say german has a steeper initial learning curve, but it becomes easier later, whereas english can be easy to get going, but it's difficult to master (obviously the spelling, but also the more advanced use of tenses etc). Regarding Twain's complaints, the biggest lesson I learned from learning german at an older age was: languages are nons…

The difficulty of mastering the tenses is something that I think a lot of English speakers overlook. There's a lot of really precise and difficult-to-explain subtleties in English. (Of course, English isn't unique in this regard -- but I feel like certain things are taken for granted). Something that catches a lot of English as second language people out is the correct time to use the gerund form (i.e., the '-ing' fo…

One of my favorites is adjective order. Pink riding big elephant just sounds wrong to a native speaker, but almost none could tell you why.
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