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Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

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Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#151
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine humans who can't die from old age: how many would choose to do anything dangerous? Would you risk your life crossing a road? Working on a construction site?

I had the same question reading Tolkien. The Elves don't age. They live amogst deities and have first hand knowledge of the creator of the universe. More so, they even know beyond doubt the fate that awaits those who die from other means: awaiting the end of the world in the comparatively boresome Halls of Mandos. Why would any Elf go to war as often as they do in Tolkien's universe seemed unexplicable.

Tolkien's elves were also supposed to be morally pure to a greater degree than most of the world. That this would entail risking one's own longer lifespan for the greater good seems internally consistent. I think the Silmarillion also indicated that elves reincarnate, which would mean death wouldn't even be the end for them.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#152
post #140
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moles don't stop growing primarily because of telomere length but because the human genome has effective methods of controlling cancer. You get cancer something like 4 times a day but the cells are terminated. (It is possible telomeres play some part in this, but I have never seen it proposed.) What you are likely trying to broach is the question "do organisms evolve to die?" the answer to which is "yes." This was or…

Imagine humans who can't die from old age: how many would choose to do anything dangerous? Would you risk your life crossing a road? Working on a construction site?

Crossing a road might become way safer in the future with self driving cars, or at least safety systems like automated break assistants becoming more commonplace. As for construction sites, robotics might replace many jobs in construction in the future.

As for the far future, maybe we will lie in a tank somewhere, have a cord attached to our brain and control robots that are in the dangerous environments for us. At least the people who can afford such a life style. It would also mean that we don't have to do shorter trips to visit someone or some place as you could just use avatars that are already present. Only for larger distances will ping delays become significant (thousands of km). It also means that we don't need breathable atmospheres or livable temperatures any more. Terraforming Mars would be a waste of time, as would be living down a gravity well. Maybe even the robots would be a waste if we can just live in simulated worlds instead. Already now there is a large gamer population. If you extrapolate the growing segment, we might end in a world where people spend their entire lives in simulated environments.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#153
post #152
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine humans who can't die from old age: how many would choose to do anything dangerous? Would you risk your life crossing a road? Working on a construction site?

Crossing a road might become way safer in the future with self driving cars, or at least safety systems like automated break assistants becoming more commonplace. As for construction sites, robotics might replace many jobs in construction in the future. As for the far future, maybe we will lie in a tank somewhere, have a cord attached to our brain and control robots that are in the dangerous environments for us. At l…

This kind of thinking makes a nice sci-fi flick but not a good predictor of reality. Just the pandemic should've given you a hint that people at large don't like being confined to their homes and living in a virtual world.

You'd have to override millions of years of evolution to do that, and I'd argue a society like this would collapse due to its general non-viability, even before our psychological health ruins us.

Also no matter if you live in a virtual system or a real one, your body needs are real, and tied to an ecosystem. Taking a brain and putting in a jar works in Robocop, but again, not in reality. It's not a matter of technology. everything is interconnected.

Anyway.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#154

The modern age has possibly removed some carcinogens like inhaling smoke from (bon)fires, mycotoxins from spoilt food, nutritional illiteracy and unsanitary conditions. But the modern age has introduced a lot of new ones like tobacco, food additives, sugar, gluten, radiation, asbestos, industrial processing of food, pesticides, sedentary lifestyle.

People have been eating wheat for a long time.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#155
post #140
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moles don't stop growing primarily because of telomere length but because the human genome has effective methods of controlling cancer. You get cancer something like 4 times a day but the cells are terminated. (It is possible telomeres play some part in this, but I have never seen it proposed.) What you are likely trying to broach is the question "do organisms evolve to die?" the answer to which is "yes." This was or…

Imagine humans who can't die from old age: how many would choose to do anything dangerous? Would you risk your life crossing a road? Working on a construction site?

Technically no one dies of old age. Old age is a contributive factor, and a significant one, but not a cause. Rather, we as a society, just give up on them at a certain age, and decide reasons don't matter.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#156
The methodology in this study seems really sketchy to me.

So we start with one indicator of bone cancer that is well-established: bone lesions. This indicator shows a significant rise from medieval to current times.

Now we use another, less established indicator (ct scan results) and find... a number consistent with the first result.

Finally, we make some "extrapolations" about the rate of undetectable cancer based on our observations and lots of assumptions.

In the end, we show that our extrapolated(!) cancer rate is higher than expected and does not show as much of a difference between medieval and modern times.

None of this explained the significant rise in the first indicator. Also, even if you liberally pad your data with extrapolations, wouldn't you have to apply the same formula to the indicators of cancer in modern-day individuals?

By the way, the modern-day cancer rate is still ~3x higher than even the extrapolated rate (15% vs 50%) - yet, the article goes one step further than the study and frames this as a finding that the cancer rate didn't grow at all.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#157
post #84
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any evidence supporting this hypothesis?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20664999/

The article does not support your hypothesis. Celiac disease is not 'gluten intolerance'.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are extinct, so supporting his hypothesis ? It's not like evolution is a design process in which something gets "traded off" - random shit happens, something sticks.

> They are extinct, so supporting his hypothesis Or they were hunted to death by organised groups of early humans. Wales are probably only surviving because their environment is so foreign to humans.

They are extinct because in the game of size vs brains they lost. So this still supports their argument. Humans and human activity is part of the environment the same way as anything else. Humans were also here with cockroaches or horses but those are still around.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#159

Perhaps of some interest is the book The Emperor of All Maladies: A Biography of Cancer : > The book weaves together Mukherjee's experiences as a hematology/oncology fellow at Massachusetts General Hospital as well as the history of cancer treatment and research.[3][5] Mukherjee gives the history of cancer from its first identification 4,600 years ago by the Egyptian physician Imhotep. The Greeks had no understanding…

Highly recommend the book, also his other book "The Gene" about the history of genetics.

Re: Was cancer less likely in a pre-industrial world?

#160
post #153
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crossing a road might become way safer in the future with self driving cars, or at least safety systems like automated break assistants becoming more commonplace. As for construction sites, robotics might replace many jobs in construction in the future. As for the far future, maybe we will lie in a tank somewhere, have a cord attached to our brain and control robots that are in the dangerous environments for us. At l…

This kind of thinking makes a nice sci-fi flick but not a good predictor of reality. Just the pandemic should've given you a hint that people at large don't like being confined to their homes and living in a virtual world. You'd have to override millions of years of evolution to do that, and I'd argue a society like this would collapse due to its general non-viability, even before our psychological health ruins us. A…

I'm not entirely sure about thinking in absolutes.

> Just the pandemic should've given you a hint that people at large don't like being confined to their homes and living in a virtual world.

This might be true for the majority of the society, but not everyone. Personally, i enjoy isolation from others for the most part due to my personality being rather introverted. This is also why i'm okay with remote work and prefer it to being in the office. There are certainly other people who wouldn't mind doing their jobs remotely and even if not everyone needs to do that, the technologies that would be developed around this concept would most certainly be useful in some way, like remote surgery: https://fortune.com/2020/02/11/tele-robotics-surgery-5g-heal...

Even if the things above are somewhat feasonable (with technologies like VRChat becoming an interesting way of socializing for some, as well as communities on Discord and Reddit, as well as social media in general), as for the "brain jar" scenario, i think you are mostly correct. I doubt that we'd be able to tackle the more "sci-fi" topics that concern our biology. For example, even if one could maintain a brain within some sort of a container, we know way too little about what exactly it'd need to remain healthy, as well as how we'd connect all of the nerve endings. Essentially, i think that we need to study our bodies more, since there's probably a link even between our gut bacteria and the functioning of our brains, as well as all of the hormones etc.: https://www.daimanuel.com/2020/11/17/how-your-gut-health-aff...

That's not to say that we shouldn't explore new possibilities and research longetivity or even the mechanisms that control the functioning of our bodies, though. That sort of research would at the very least decrease the health spending in the elderly and would help them enjoy their later years more fully. I think it's worth pursuing without going into either of the two extremes - full trans humanism or total denial.

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