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Lima: Linux-on-Mac

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Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#231

Post by dmitriid »

mixedCase wrote: post #225
dmitriid wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem isn't it? Whichever problem you point at in Linux, the answer is invariably the same: "you're holding it wr^W^W^^W you're using the wrong distro, the wrong package manager, the wrong DE, the wrong version of any of those things". And, invariably, for any problem the one true combination is different.

And that's why forks suck and everyone should use a spork. Having options that cater to different usecases is confusing. You don't really need to take big bites anyway.

- Hey, your fork is broken, and made out of plastic.

- You should use the oak box set of Forkuntu 12.4, no problems with forks there.

- Yes, but it lacks any spoons

- For spoons there's always Spoontoo.

- But... I want both spoons and forks...

- For that you can always tweak a few dozen unrelated work orders, menus and item descriptions in Sporkian. But that will only work witn Sporkian unstable, and needs a special tablecloth.

- Okay... What about knives?

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#232

Post by zepto »

smoldesu wrote: post #161
zepto wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is a poor design - no sarcasm - I mean it. However it’s better for most people than the alternative. Fixing this should be job #1 for the Linux community.

For the most part, Linux has "fixed" that. Really, the hardest part of using Linux is the onboarding process, which is being addressed with companies like System76 and Lenovo offering to ship laptops with Linux preinstalled.

As far as I am aware Linux hasn’t even started to work on the problem:

https://m.slashdot.org/story/360034

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#233

Post by fnord77 »

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

for me, I travel a lot. Have you seen the size of workstation-class laptops? Just the powerbrick on the top-end lenovo is almost the size of a shoebox. And even the upgrade screens don't hold a candle to macbook screens.

So I will put up with Macos interop quirks with docker and so on for the great screen and ease of carrying.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#234

Post by viraptor »

dmitriid wrote: post #215
cookiengineer wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're extrapolating from Debian's packaging concept to other distros, though your argument does not apply to most of the rolling distros out there. On a rolling distro (e.g. using pacman, or say yast2 and others for sake of argument) you typically ship the header files included with the libraries, so that you don't need multiple versions of the same library installed. On Debian/Ubuntu, however, it will always end up…

That's the problem isn't it? Whichever problem you point at in Linux, the answer is invariably the same: "you're holding it wr^W^W^^W you're using the wrong distro, the wrong package manager, the wrong DE, the wrong version of any of those things". And, invariably, for any problem the one true combination is different.

This case already started with discussion about brew. Brew is a choice you make if you don't like other distribution platforms on a Mac. But guess what - some people complain about brew not keeping software stable, but rather chasing new versions!

This is not a Linux issue - wherever you have different options and use cases you'll find different recommendations depending on what people are trying to achieve.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#236

Post by chipotle_coyote »

kelnos wrote: post #163
ravenstine wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

> I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. Been running Xfce since 2004 with no stability issues whatsoever. > Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac. Oof, I guess you never got a Mac during 2016-2020 or so. They've been gradually declining in build quality. I owned Mac laptops continually from 2005 until 2019, and…

In my experience, with the exception of the keyboard, MacBooks have always had pretty good build quality. I know every single person reading this is screaming THAT'S A PRETTY BIG HONKING EXCEPTION and, yes, absolutely, but the "new" keyboard that replaced the butterfly style one -- which is really not a new keyboard at all, but essentially the external keyboard they've been using for years at this point -- is solid.

As for "More [actually good] software supports macOS," I agree that's the definition of an opinion, but it's one that I tend to share, I admit. I think it depends on what you want to do with your computer, though. I'm frequently using BBEdit (it's what I spend all my time in at my technical writing job, in fact), Acorn, Retrobatch, and Ulysses (what I spend all my time in doing fiction writing these days), and none of those have Linux equivalents that I really consider equivalent. YMMV, obviously, but I've tried many of the semi-equivalents that would be available to me if I went back to Linux, and...I could make them work, but either not as well or with way, way more effort.

And, as for customization, this is a weird one -- I think different people look at "customization" differently. For me, I don't much care about widget and aesthetic customization, but I love love love things like macOS's Services menu, particularly in combination with Automator, and third-party automation apps like Keyboard Maestro, Hazel, and Alfred -- none of which I've found real Linux equivalents to yet. (They may be out there, but if so, they're not making themselves obvious.) I think Apple actually gives you way more knobs to turn than they're usually given credit for, but against stereotype, they're knobs deep under the hood.

Having said that, if I did end up spending a lot of time in Linux again, I'm almost positive I'd go with Xfce once more. I loved it nearly 20 years ago and the times I've checked in since then have just been more positive. :)

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#237

Post by honr »

ravenstine wrote: post #44
Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

I use both. Here is my take on it:

1. Mac has shit for a window manager. When I focus and get in the flow, Mac's window manager becomes a massive showstopper for me. My productivity lives and dies by my window manager customizations and shortcuts. Mac's is just a joke when it comes to controling 20+ windows. I sometimes have 100+ editor, terminal, and browser windows. Linux has many window managers up to the task (i3, xmonad, openbox, and countless more). Mac has the default one which you CAN'T change. There are Window Manager "Apps" which use the default window manager's APIs to tell it to, say, move this window to this area. As a result, I haven't found a usable third-party window manager on Mac that can operate at a fraction of the speed of the simplest window managers on linux.

2. Mac's official builtin package manager is a joke. The community's effort to fix it (Homebrew) is halfway between the debian maintainers community and the nodejs community, closer to the latter. I wouldn't say Homebrew is a joke, but it's not really comparable (and fair to compare) to the many human-years that has been poured into QA and patches the Debian community does. Also, you can touch all aspects of the system with apt/dpkg, unlike the like of ports or Homebrew. For people who want more control there is also Arch, and many other distros to pick.

3. Laptop build quality: IMHO Mac doesn't really have a contender here. Every year I try to hard-force myself to buy a non-mac laptop and fail. There is really no one serious enough (or, to be fair, with the same order-of-magnitude of cash and operations and hardware expertise) to pull of the same build quality. An anecdote (but very generalizable): A while back my non-mac (yet, a very well-known brand) laptop's fan died. I got a fan and replaced it. My wife's mac laptop's fan also died about the same time. I replace that one, too. At one point I had both laptop's open on my desk beside each other. I never want to buy a laptop with _visibly_ poor engineering ever again. Guess you have to compare the internals of a few laptops to get my point.

4. Software compatibility: I think this is a very fragmented area, to be fair to all OSes. A lot of vendors only produce on Windows. Some are Win+Mac. Some are Win+Mac+Linux+ChromeOS+Android+iOS. Also a very (yet very significant in some sectors) are Win+Linux, or Linux-only. So, one has to check the availability of the critical software they need. My gut feeling, lacking any better measurement, is that Mac has far more compatible Apps than Linux, especially Apps for the general public (not taylored to a high-tech profession).

5. Appeal: Mac has clearly undergone far better UI/UX design and QA processes than all existing linux DEs. This is very visible to some people (if not to most people), and does change the personal choice of people.

6. Stability and similar problems with Linux: I use both Mac and Linux everyday, and for me Linux and Mac has been about the same in terms of stability (with linux maybe a bit more stable). This is obviously hardware dependent, and linux runs on a vast number of hardwares, so it's not easy (or reasonable) to compare all Mac and all Linux instances. Or at least I don't care about such a comparison. Only the Linux configurations that make sense (well supported, without undocumented hardware blobs, etc.) matter (to me at least).

Overall, I prefer my Linux machines (not just because of software freedoms, but also because Mac is unusable for me when I work on large/serious software projects), but I simply can't live with current batch of Linux laptops either. Maybe in a few years some decent ones show up (purism could get somewhere, or system76, etc). Or maybe Apple finally works to scale up their window managers and package managers to make them suitable for special-cases and make it a bit less frustrating for some of us.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#238

Post by breakfastduck »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #227
kelnos wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. Been running Xfce since 2004 with no stability issues whatsoever. > Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac. Oof, I guess you never got a Mac during 2016-2020 or so. They've been gradually declining in build quality. I owned Mac laptops continually from 2005 until 2019, and…

> Every time I go back to macOS, I get frustrated with the inflexibility of it all. I get that it's a pain to feel like you have to customize everything to get something usable for you It's great if macOS is what you want, or is close enough to it (which it is for many, many people). I guess people's problem with Linux is that no amount of knob twiddling ever gets Linux's desktop and window manager close enough to wh…

A true macOS subsystem for Linux would be incredible.

I just can't use Linux or Windows for my desktop OS. Windows for gaming, macOS for work/daily.

God knows I've tried to run Linux. But it's just nowhere near as hassle free as I desire. Widows is out soely due to native non unix command line.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#240

Post by breakfastduck »

happymellon wrote: post #119
ravenstine wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

> Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac. If you are American. In the UK, I find the keyboard layout bewildering. It is not ANSI and it isn't ISO. It's some other thing, with keys that don't exist in any other English speaking keyboard. They even hide # behind a special alt key combo. Other things about it are good, but there are some design decisions…

The keyboard layout is absolutely non standard in the UK but it's absolutely standard apple in the UK.

Appreciate that may be off if you're trying to adopt but I'm so used to this layout after many, many years. I'm using a 2007 iMac keyboard and it matches exactly to my 2019 16".

For example, the alt 3 for hash is so naturally embedded I reach for it when using windows machines. I have to do weird rebinds on my windows setup to match the layout because it's so embedded. I think macs have had the same keyboard layout for 15 years or so at this point.

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