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NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

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Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor. For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially…

I'm curious, what are some of the complexities involved in a timekeeping system?

Things like varying overtime rates depending on time of day, accumulated hours, whether it's a holiday, different rates for depending on specific work assignments, etc. It's not as simple as a flat rate x number of hours. But it's nothing that hasn't been done before, either.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#22
post #6

Michael Bloomberg might have a point, but he really isn't in a strong position to complain about shitty overpriced software. Glass houses and all that.

What position are you in to declare the Bloomberg terminal 'shitty overpriced software'?

Just so people can put this in perspective, a Bloomberg terminal license costs approx $1750 per month, with a two year contract. The software basically gives users a fairly raw interface to financial data, analytics and an email/IM system.

In a sales call, the Bloomberg sales reps will demonstrate endless functionality of the terminal : there's a huge amount there. The dirty secret is, though, that most people use only 4 different functions (different people, different functions, of course). The big switching cost is that the email/IM is entirely proprietary : Everyone has to have a BBg terminal, because everyone else has one.

The software is probably as well written as you would expect from a company in a monopoly position. One thing in their favour : If they fundamentally changed the way the 'MSG' button worked, 50% of their users would complain.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#23

Michael Bloomberg might have a point, but he really isn't in a strong position to complain about shitty overpriced software. Glass houses and all that.

If you're talking cost versus revenue derived, Bloomberg's software may be some of the cheapest ever produced.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#24
post #8

Although New York has "received a working system that will advance our management ability ... because the project was apparently tainted by fraud and kickback schemes, the City must be made whole" ... The city is also planning to launch a request for information (RFI) process in January in search of alternative timekeeping systems. Wow. So they eventually got a working system. Now they're throwing it away and going t…

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor. For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially…

They are more complex than this. Not just anyone can start a company to provide 99.9% reliable enterprise-level management of this problem. A recent study indicated that a major city would have to spend at least $100M to tackle this systemic issue. NYC's mistake was trying to cut corners with $60M.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#25
post #22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What position are you in to declare the Bloomberg terminal 'shitty overpriced software'?

Just so people can put this in perspective, a Bloomberg terminal license costs approx $1750 per month, with a two year contract. The software basically gives users a fairly raw interface to financial data, analytics and an email/IM system. In a sales call, the Bloomberg sales reps will demonstrate endless functionality of the terminal : there's a huge amount there. The dirty secret is, though, that most people use on…

Full disclosure I'm an intern at Bloomberg.

You're essentially correct on all points but clients tend to use many more than 4 functions though significantly less than the total number.

And with regards to IM and email, it should be noted that any user of a Bloomberg terminal can IM any other user anywhere in the world (there's no 'friending' or anything). Many, many trades are conducted over IM or 'IB' as it's called.

The most accurate analog I can think of to the Bloombeg terminal is Emacs. It has everything and the kitchen sink (News, dining suggestions, email, IM, sports updates, etc.) and clients are extremely particular about functionality. I have a cousin that's been a subscriber since 1997.

And with regards to code quality, I'm not sure how much I'm permitted to say, but the first Bloomberg terminal was released in the 1980s (this was before SQL existed). Also they maintain the largest private network in the world (they run a line to every terminal)... so all the things that go with that.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor. For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially…

They are more complex than this. Not just anyone can start a company to provide 99.9% reliable enterprise-level management of this problem. A recent study indicated that a major city would have to spend at least $100M to tackle this systemic issue. NYC's mistake was trying to cut corners with $60M.

[deleted]

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#27
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, what are some of the complexities involved in a timekeeping system?

Things like varying overtime rates depending on time of day, accumulated hours, whether it's a holiday, different rates for depending on specific work assignments, etc. It's not as simple as a flat rate x number of hours. But it's nothing that hasn't been done before, either.

At first I was like, "wow this would take me five minutes to program". Now it's looking like a solid 20 minutes.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#28
post #17

Those who say that the city's payroll needs are complex are entirely correct. A city government that size will inevitably have a mind-boggling number of variations in the business rules that the software must model. Yet $600 million? I've built accounting software, and though it wasn't as complex as what NYC needs, I'm 90% sure $600 million is astronomically higher than what a reasonable price would be. What about th…

My university spent $10 million updating their student information system. It's not hard to hit eight figures when you're paying an army of extremely unproductive consultants $500-$1000/hour.

$600 million is extortionate, of course - hence the demand for reparation. That's why bloated consulting companies like this are able to demand such high prices. Their size provides a target for the inevitable lawsuit if things go south.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#29

CityTime was launched in 2003 at a budget of $63 million, but costs swelled dramatically as the project stumbled along for nearly a decade. From $63M to $600M? I would have thought that ppl may have noticed when the costs doubled or tripled the budget. Almost 10x the original budget? That type of oversight must go pretty high up.

I've been on the wrong end of a couple of projects like this, and in my experience (not necessarily indicative of this case) the customer can be VERY at fault.

I've been dragged into 'feature acceptance meetings' that literally dragged out for weeks when testing of a new chat component devolved into a days-long discussion on whether the graphic in the header (provided by the customer) was appropriate. The unspoken issue proved to be that they didn't want us to use 'barren trees' in the picture of their building. We switched the photo used from one taken in winter to one taken in summer. This took something like 400 man-hours to resolve, after which we achieved signoff, but at the expense of having met budget.

Another instance on the same product was feature creep to the extreme. We had originally won a firm-fixed contract, meaning we would build products a, b and c for x dollars, and if it cost us more, it came out of our pocket. If it cost us less, we pocketed the profits. The customer decided, on day 1, that they actually wanted a lot more features than were described in the project scope defined, and that we won a legally binding contract to perform. Out of accomodation, we changed their product to a time-and-materials contract, meaning we had a fixed markup on labor and a minimal markup on hardware / tangibles. This then involved them dragging the project out for years longer than anticipated and signing invoices all the way, then griping at us on the budget near project completion and asking for a bunch of free labor (which is illegal under their new contract). The problem in that case was that the project management and senior execs changed repeatedly. We were at first working with their Office of Science and Technology, then with Information Services, then with Public Affairs. Each of these department changes involved swapping our equipment out so that we could have appropriately charged-back equipment to the appropriate department, which meant weeks of non-work. Each department had a different spin on what they wanted out of the project. We spent 8 months and thousands of man-hours implementing a very elegant services oriented architecture that could surface all of their legacy systems to a single web portal. Then we changed departments, and they literally told us to turn that feature off, and instead focus on a visual redesign. We implemented a single sign on service that we integrated with our product, but could be extended to work with literally every system in their enterprise. It was abandoned due to a department change.

During the first phase of the project, we'd worked with the customer to build out their data center. They wanted a new data center because the division that owned the project was going to be adding a bunch of other programs to integrate with what we were building. They spent over a year on construction, converting a service garage into a data center. They bought millions of dollars worth of EMC storage hardware and Cisco routers. Then they realized that they didn't have any budget planned for out-year maintenance, so they moved the venue. That was somewhere in the realm of $50 million dollars that was literally just thrown away, as the last I heard, they were re-converting the data center back into a garage.

In short, government contractors catch a lot of flack, because they control the visibility of these things. The contractors often can't speak to details of these projects due to security clearances or NDAs, and at the end of the day, the government is always happy to blame the vendor. It's well practiced, and designed with a variety of scapegoat clauses built in.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor. For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially…

I'm curious, what are some of the complexities involved in a timekeeping system?

You should also account for scale.

The City of New York employs about a quarter of a million people, which is around the same size as General Electric or GM, worldwide, performing a wide range of job functions.

Also: the particular system under development included hand scanners, so you should include developing for that.

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