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NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

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Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#11

Post by bradleyland »

thematt wrote: post #8

Although New York has "received a working system that will advance our management ability ... because the project was apparently tainted by fraud and kickback schemes, the City must be made whole" ... The city is also planning to launch a request for information (RFI) process in January in search of alternative timekeeping systems. Wow. So they eventually got a working system. Now they're throwing it away and going t…

It would seem that way, but this is municipal government, so there is likely local code (law) that imposes requirements that will boggle your mind and are likely unique to NYC. Take any trivial software task, target municipalities as your customer, and you'd better triple your budgets.

Municipal governments are a large portion of our business, so I'm intimately familiar with the challenges. What's unfortunate is that it's infrequently the fault of the individuals running the municipality. We meet a lot of really great people out in the field. It's just that they're doing their job with one hand tied behind their back. They have to operate within a framework that is (mis)guided by public interest.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#12

Post by jrwoodruff »

kenjackson wrote: post #5

CityTime was launched in 2003 at a budget of $63 million, but costs swelled dramatically as the project stumbled along for nearly a decade. From $63M to $600M? I would have thought that ppl may have noticed when the costs doubled or tripled the budget. Almost 10x the original budget? That type of oversight must go pretty high up.

In these types of projects it seems like no one wants to point the finger. Once costs have doubled, or tripled, everyone is afraid of taking the blame for wasting all that money. So they keep 'working with' the vendor.

Clearly fraud and kickbacks kept this stumbling along much longer than a normal failing IT project would. I'm not sure why or how an expense like that on an overage like that on a major payroll system would not be on the mayor's daily agenda. The right people must have been getting those kickbacks.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#13

Post by almightygod »

BadassFractal wrote: post #9

How complicated must that piece of software have been for it to cost that much? For that kind of money it better be at least as complex as any OS out there.

my guess is most of the time was spent in analysis and consensus building being that it was for government. The code is surely atrocious

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#14

Post by kenjackson »

thematt wrote: post #8

Although New York has "received a working system that will advance our management ability ... because the project was apparently tainted by fraud and kickback schemes, the City must be made whole" ... The city is also planning to launch a request for information (RFI) process in January in search of alternative timekeeping systems. Wow. So they eventually got a working system. Now they're throwing it away and going t…

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor.

For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially ones who aren't snitches. Based on past products in this market, I think we can do quite well.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#15

Post by scubzero »

Worked for subsidiary of SAIC contracting out to NYC government over a decade ago. Trust me when I say this is nothing out of the usual... project will go order of magnitude over budget constantly.

As for the requirements that drive these projects, typically they are written specifically to present the appearance of an open bidding process while allowing the departments to know ahead of time who will actually implement the contract because they are so specific in certain areas that only one contract can possibly fulfill them.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#16

Post by jerf »

kenjackson wrote: post #14
thematt wrote: post #8

Although New York has "received a working system that will advance our management ability ... because the project was apparently tainted by fraud and kickback schemes, the City must be made whole" ... The city is also planning to launch a request for information (RFI) process in January in search of alternative timekeeping systems. Wow. So they eventually got a working system. Now they're throwing it away and going t…

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor. For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially…

To be fair, timekeeping software really isn't as trivial as you might like, at least assuming that we want to move beyond the raw recording of who worked when out into actual management of such things. Requirements come from federal, state, and local laws, as well as negotiations with all relevant unions. So even before you've gotten to the usual BS requirements laid on by management, you've already got a large pile of requirements that A: are legally mandated and B: written without so much as five minutes consultation with a software engineer.

But, yeah, on the other hand that's just the usual business software story. 10x budget overruns are probably not called for.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#17

Post by jarrett »

Those who say that the city's payroll needs are complex are entirely correct. A city government that size will inevitably have a mind-boggling number of variations in the business rules that the software must model.

Yet $600 million? I've built accounting software, and though it wasn't as complex as what NYC needs, I'm 90% sure $600 million is astronomically higher than what a reasonable price would be.

What about the original price of $63 million? That still seems awfully high to me, but I'm not sure. Does anyone have an opinion on that?

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#18

Post by clistctrl »

kenjackson wrote: post #14
thematt wrote: post #8

Although New York has "received a working system that will advance our management ability ... because the project was apparently tainted by fraud and kickback schemes, the City must be made whole" ... The city is also planning to launch a request for information (RFI) process in January in search of alternative timekeeping systems. Wow. So they eventually got a working system. Now they're throwing it away and going t…

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor. For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially…

I'm curious, what are some of the complexities involved in a timekeeping system?

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#19

Post by kingkilr »

jarrett wrote: post #17

Those who say that the city's payroll needs are complex are entirely correct. A city government that size will inevitably have a mind-boggling number of variations in the business rules that the software must model. Yet $600 million? I've built accounting software, and though it wasn't as complex as what NYC needs, I'm 90% sure $600 million is astronomically higher than what a reasonable price would be. What about th…

I've never built a time keeping system, but this is how I put that number in perspective. For $63 million I can hire everyone who's ever been a Django core developer (people I've worked with, and who are excellent) for 5 years, at 500k a year... and there'd be money left over.

Re: NYC mayor demands $600M refund on software project

#20

Post by ams6110 »

jerf wrote: post #16
kenjackson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Timekeeping systems are actually extremely complicated. EXTREMELY sophisticated. The level of detail it takes to get one right is painstaking, and it is key to a city's survival. It's complex enough that you wouldn't understand it, nor would any auditor. For that reason, I just started a new startup company: TimeKeep NYC. We specialize in timekeeping software for NYC area cities. Looking for employees now, especially…

To be fair, timekeeping software really isn't as trivial as you might like, at least assuming that we want to move beyond the raw recording of who worked when out into actual management of such things. Requirements come from federal, state, and local laws, as well as negotiations with all relevant unions. So even before you've gotten to the usual BS requirements laid on by management, you've already got a large pile…

But, really.... timekeeping and payroll were some of the FIRST business applications developed. It's a solved problem at this point, even with all the nuances. Developing this from scratch for NYC seems like the epitome of reinventing the wheel.
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