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Lima: Linux-on-Mac

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Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#111
post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

"As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done"

After 10 years of linux it took me 1 month with a macbook to decide that i just dont have the time to keep my linux running the way i want to, play the hardware lottery and fear every major update (or every update after a vacation with arch).

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use a Macbook Pro for development. I spend a fair amount of time in Linux servers. Running a Linux VM for local development of things that require Linux doesn't bother me. I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. When I'm using awk and grep, it's in Linux, not macOS. Not judging you or your opinion here - just explaining that I'm as bewildered by your experience as you are by mine.

>I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization, and you can really pad out your desktop to be an ergonomic and customized place designed for you. MacOS, on the other hand, is practically the definition of fighting your OS: you aren't allowed to have a proper package manager, Apple has to…

> I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS.

You might be right. But Linux vs MacOS argument is meaningless. For me it's "Linux laptop" vs "MacOS laptop", and there's a huge difference in 2021.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is more customisable, but macOS is much, much better out of the box. I use both every day for about the same amount of time, and macOS requires much less fighting to get the basics right (i.e. networking and Bluetooth just works, no need to tinker with X or Wayland, printing is much less problematic, OS updates are non-events, etc). I am happy to use Linux at work, but I would never put it on my main computer a…

Well, let's start with the places I take issue with: > OS updates are non-events Big Sur and Catalina have been the most disastrous updates in MacOS history. I'm not really sure why you'd choose now to highlight their notorious stability and ease of use. Ask any sysadmin who had a fleet of Macbooks during this update cycle: it was a nightmare and a half. Failing that, ask them about Catalina. They might run and hide…

> Ask any sysadmin who had a fleet of Macbooks during this update cycle: it was a nightmare and a half.

That’s not saying much, everything is always terrible and it was all better under Lion/Snow Leopard/Tiger/OS 8. The 4 computers I had to update did it just fine.

> Brew and Macports both suck. If you use Linux on a daily basis, then you're well familiar with what a good package manager looks like: apt and Pacman are both good examples.

Indeed. From my experience either work great (I use CentOS and OpenSuse daily, alongside macOS). The only bits of software I’ve ever needed which weren’t on Macports were quantum chemistry codes, which I wanted to compile myself anyway to configure them properly and avoid MPI issues. At some point I had to compile GCC myself to track the development branch, but I haven’t had to do that in quite a while now. So yeah, your points are valid, but they still do their job, and you don’t have to rely on them for OS updates, so they cannot compromise stability.

> The ball is in Apple's court then. If they want to brag about being a real Unix system, the least they can do is ship modern Unix tools with their OS. Ironically, MacOS is the least compatible Unix system around.

They haven’t bragged about it in a decade. Besides, if you know UNIX, you realise that this kind of shenanigans is just life, and that there is quite a bit of variance in the specific implementation of user land software. Your problem is not that it is a sub-par UNIX, it’s that it isn’t Linux (which isn’t UNIX). The BSDs also lack most of the GNU tools by default, and so did most other UNIXes when they were still around.

> I mean, the M1 Macbook Air is sitting in my desk as we speak.

That’s fine. I didn’t accuse you of lying, and you are entitled to your preferences. I just pointed out that your arguments were not great, and indeed often heard from people who never really used Macs.

> My guff is well founded, I think: as the most valuable company in the world, Apple has an obligation to provide at least some level of modularity in their ecosystem.

This might be your problem. Whatever their market cap, they don’t really have an obligation to align with your opinions. I understand that you’d like it, but what kind of moral imperative would there be?

> Otherwise, the precedent they set will continue to influence every market we can conceive, until our concept of "ownership" is poisoned to mean a subscription service.

How is this related to their business policy? I strongly dislike their foray into services, but other than that they sell devices, not subscriptions. Your devices are yours, nobody is going to come and take them.

> It's driven by greed, and makes me sick. It always comes at the cost of the user, and the declining greatness of MacOS is a perfect example of how Apple's hunger for money is poisoning their product line.

Right, so you have an ideological problem and that’s why you sound like that. Well, if I can recommend anything, it would be to keep using Thinkpads, they are good devices and Linux is great as well. That way you can completely ignore whatever happens on the Apple side and be happy.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#114
post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

>Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer multiple third party tools just to get a modern version of awk and grep

This is a pretty trivial complaint. It's three lines pasted into the shell available on like a hundred blogs on the internet to update your coreutils. If you are at the point where you need a modern awk or grep and you absolutely cannot do with what is installed already, I would be shocked if you didn't already know about brew and have them installed.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#115

Just vm’s? No syscall emulation?

Microsoft abandoned syscall emulation with WSL2. The differences between Linux and XNU might be less problematic, since it's a Unix derivative. But as Wine shows, it takes a lot of work and you still get a suboptimal, buggy experience.

WSL1 is still a thing. And you can't compare it to wine. WSL1 is a masterpiece and wine is, quite understandably, problematic. If only because they have to reverse engineer it.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#116
post #6

Is IO still going to be horrible here? Docker on a linux VM, with all code on the linux VM, is significantly faster than Docker for Mac. Generally just because of IO.

IO in Docker has improved greatly, some 6 months or so ago.

[deleted]

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#117
post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

> All the customization doesn't offset the trouble that desktop Linux can bring.

To be fair, those that desire that typically don't use file explorers.

I personally find them a hastle when they must be used, such as some websites for file upload have no easy way around using a file picker, perhaps they are much more convenient on MacOS, but I generally find it more convenient to use a shell command and simply provide the file to upload by way of an argument to the command. Modern shells also typically have advanced history search functionality to quickly enter a file path that one has already used in the past for something.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#118
post #6

Is IO still going to be horrible here? Docker on a linux VM, with all code on the linux VM, is significantly faster than Docker for Mac. Generally just because of IO.

IO in Docker has improved greatly, some 6 months or so ago.

I used it last week...it's still really bad. Running IO heavy tests taking literally 100% more time for me. I'm just running openSUSE MicroOS with podman for my container workloads now, it's been rock solid.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#119
post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

> Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac.

If you are American.

In the UK, I find the keyboard layout bewildering. It is not ANSI and it isn't ISO. It's some other thing, with keys that don't exist in any other English speaking keyboard. They even hide # behind a special alt key combo.

Other things about it are good, but there are some design decisions which are just plain wrong.

[Edit] I received downvotes, so as someone who uses a UK Macbook Pro I just have to reference this because they layout pisses me off.

Here is an Apple link to prove that this is real.

https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/4668/as-images.apple...

In the UK ISO layout, the `~#` key is normally where the `|\` key is on the Apple keyboard, and the backtick which is down by the Z is to the left of the 1. We get range and paragraph next to the 1, which is horrible.

The thing that makes me concerned about the build of this 2019 i7 Macbook Pro is that is is always extremely hot. I'm only running one 4k screen off it but it is regularly running with fans on. I've had Macs in the past, and they haven't been quite as noisy as this. I'm sure its mostly due to crappy Intel hardware which is why they are being dumped, but this is a Mac and I can only judge them on what they sell.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#120
post #111
post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

"As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done" After 10 years of linux it took me 1 month with a macbook to decide that i just dont have the time to keep my linux running the way i want to, play the hardware lottery and fear every major update (or every update after a vacation with arch).

I mean, I just don't understand the fascination with rolling update models for the core os. I've got other things to worry about than playing with config files, so I just install a new LTS distro every couple years or so and amortize the pain to less than the yearly macos updates.
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