Lima: Linux-on-Mac • Hacker News Board

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#21

Post by smoldesu » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

I'm also pretty baffled. I fell for the M1 Macbook Air, and now that I have it... I still reach for my Thinkpad 90% of the time. Maybe it's just because we're in a pandemic, but the battery life didn't really wow me, and the performance was a little underwhelming compared to the Ryzen APUs I had seen on laptops half that price a mere 12 months ago.

And that's just the hardware side of things!

Not only are your coreutils horribly outdated, but getting a complete set of development tools on MacOS is a nightmare. Unless you install the 65 gigabyte monster (!!!) that XCode is, you're getting a gimped toolset, and Apple is kind enough to offer the end user absolutely no modularity in that install. MacOS still doesn't have a good package manager (though Brew and Macports are fine), it still doesn't have support for any industry-standard graphics APIs (sorry, Metal is still a joke), and your "end-to-end" encryption still sends your keys to Apple and third parties.

Seeing a developer use a Macbook used to be a symbol of pedigree back when OSX debuted, since it offered a pretty unparalleled Unix desktop experience. Nowadays though, MacOS has become such a bloated beast that its hardly worth using in my opinion. Big Sur feels like Apple's take on Windows 7, and I can only imagine that they will make the same mistakes that Microsoft did in their hubris with Windows 8.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#22

Post by jakeva » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #17

Naac wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was just an example though. My point was that you're constantly fighting an operating system that's clearly not designed for you ( the developer ).

Apple has always made it clear that they care about the experience of their users, not the developers. Because the customers are there, the developers follow. That's just how it works unfortunately. Also, clearly not designed for you? You can install Brew to have a package manager, Magnet to add Window snapping for a dollar, you can make it fit your use case for not that much effort or money. You don't have to use va…

Forget window snapping for a dollar, try window snapping for free with Rectangle! https://rectangleapp.com/

And I agree. As a user and developer, I have no idea what the OP is on about

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#23

Post by grawprog » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #17

Naac wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was just an example though. My point was that you're constantly fighting an operating system that's clearly not designed for you ( the developer ).

Apple has always made it clear that they care about the experience of their users, not the developers. Because the customers are there, the developers follow. That's just how it works unfortunately. Also, clearly not designed for you? You can install Brew to have a package manager, Magnet to add Window snapping for a dollar, you can make it fit your use case for not that much effort or money. You don't have to use va…

> to add Window snapping for a dollar

You have to pay extra for basic window manager features on macos? How is that even caring about the experience of users let alone devs?

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#24

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

user3939382 wrote: post #4

I always thought “Windows Subsystem for Linux” was phrased backwards and should have been “Linux Subsystem for Windows”. It threw me for a loop when I read that phrasing on the readme.

It’s backwards on purpose, from my understanding. Bad old days marketing folks still have the upper hand at ms.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#25

Post by gjsman-1000 » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #21

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

I'm also pretty baffled. I fell for the M1 Macbook Air, and now that I have it... I still reach for my Thinkpad 90% of the time. Maybe it's just because we're in a pandemic, but the battery life didn't really wow me, and the performance was a little underwhelming compared to the Ryzen APUs I had seen on laptops half that price a mere 12 months ago. And that's just the hardware side of things! Not only are your coreut…

So much of this is incorrect. You can prefer the ThinkPad, that's fine! But you've got several incorrect statements.

"Unless you install the 65 gigabyte monster" - It's 9GB. With caches and Simulator, maybe another 9GB. 1/3 of 65 GB.

"sorry, Metal is still a joke" - It's different, but developers who have to write shaders in Metal actually have pretty good reviews of it. They admit it isn't as convenient as having native Vulkan or OpenGL, but Metal has it's charm as a language.

"your "end-to-end" encryption still sends your keys to Apple and third parties." - INCORRECT. It sends your data over an encrypted connection to iCloud without any end-to-end encryption, but if you disable iCloud Backup, your data is completely end-to-end encrypted. This is very different than sending your E2E keys to Apple.

"bloated beast that its hardly worth using in my opinion" - The same could be said for Windows 10, eh?

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#26

Post by smoldesu » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #19

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

I use a Macbook Pro for development. I spend a fair amount of time in Linux servers. Running a Linux VM for local development of things that require Linux doesn't bother me. I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. When I'm using awk and grep, it's in Linux, not macOS. Not judging you or your opinion here - just explaining that I'm as bewildered by your experience as you are by mine.

>I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain.

I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization, and you can really pad out your desktop to be an ergonomic and customized place designed for you. MacOS, on the other hand, is practically the definition of fighting your OS: you aren't allowed to have a proper package manager, Apple has to drip-feed you old coreutils through their notoriously slow XCode service, and now you aren't even allowed to use a VPN without Apple disabling it on some of their apps. I don't really see how a Mac elevates your workflow that much, especially when most of your praise seems to be towards GNU tools and your Linux machines.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#27

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

jeremyjh wrote: post #11

user3939382 wrote: post #4

I always thought “Windows Subsystem for Linux” was phrased backwards and should have been “Linux Subsystem for Windows”. It threw me for a loop when I read that phrasing on the readme.

Well, "Windows Subsystem" is a term that has existed for like 25 years; the kernel design for NT included this idea of subsystems that could provide compatibility layers or other functionality at a lower level of abstraction than a user-space library. They thought they needed this when they splintered from the partnership with IBM in the OS/2 project. In the early days of Windows NT, Windows Subsystems for OS/2 and f…

[deleted]

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#28

Post by mxcrossr » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #17

Naac wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was just an example though. My point was that you're constantly fighting an operating system that's clearly not designed for you ( the developer ).

Apple has always made it clear that they care about the experience of their users, not the developers. Because the customers are there, the developers follow. That's just how it works unfortunately. Also, clearly not designed for you? You can install Brew to have a package manager, Magnet to add Window snapping for a dollar, you can make it fit your use case for not that much effort or money. You don't have to use va…

You forgot BSD… oh wait I guess they’re also user hostile because they dare to ship without GNU grep

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#29

Post by jcelerier » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #20

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

"I Just recently I learned you can't add more swap ( creating a swap file and adding it ). That seems incredible to me." At what point are you just approaching MacOS with the wrong mindset? MacOS isn't something you should or need to manage swap for or should really think about. It's the same reason you don't think about managing swap on Windows or your iPhone or your Android or your Smart TV.

> It's the same reason you don't think about managing swap on Windows

not managing swap on windows means being condmned to slowness

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#30

Post by porcc » Fri, May 14, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

As a longtime macOS user and an ex-Linux user, I believe for many the idea goes the other way around. Why fight to keep your linux installation working? MacOS has worked nearly unconfigured for me for almost a decade now.