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Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

businessinsider.com.au

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Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#411

Post by aiisjustanif »

tomnipotent wrote: post #248
roenxi wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article is saying top 1% income in the US is numbers higher than $400k! The median was something like $50k or $80k last time I checked. Those aren't normal workers, those are exactly there sort of people who are seen as not contributing their fair share. They physically can't be working harder than a median worker but they're getting multiples of the salary. If someone is going to be supporting society, they are…

> Those aren't normal workers What's your definition of a normal worker? Lawyers, doctors, dentists, pilots, architects and programmers sound like normal workers to me. This is still millions of people, and I imagine they would think they're normal workers, too. But Fortune 500 CEOs? Well, there's only... 500. Even the combined payroll of the MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL, and MLS is less than 10,000 professional athletes where…

> What's your definition of a normal worker? Lawyers, doctors, dentists, pilots, architects and programmers sound like normal workers to me. Please stop acting like these professions average at the 1% threshold. EPI put the top 1% at $737,697 in 2019 and the top 5% at $309,348 [1].

Average Income of those normal workers [2]:

* Lawyer: $148,910

* Dentists (across all specialities): $186,300

* Physicians (across all specialties): $218,850

* Architects: $89,470

* Software engineers (across all specialties): $109,950

* All computer and math specialties: $96,770

* Pilots (All specialties): $163,480 [3]

So these “Normal people” are not even apart of the discussion stop making it seem like all these professions seem like they are in the top 1%. It’s paint a really false picture that skews the conversation at large.

1. https://www.epi.org/blog/top-1-0-of-earners-see-wages-up-157...

2. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#23-0000

3. I think that number might miss out on all the burn out low level contract airline pilots that make peanuts.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#412

Post by aiisjustanif »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #182
bartart wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting that the top 1% pay about 40% of all income taxes at the federal level, and they earn about 20% of annual income from all sources ( http://hdr.undp.org/en/indicators/186106 ). So classifying 88% of federal revenue as paid by regular workers might be a bit misleading

99% of the top 1% are "normal workers" like me - engineers at Google - or my cousin - a radiologist - or one of my best friends - an investment banker - or lawyers, or owners of successful small businesses, etc... These "normal workers" pay a lot of that 40% of the tax bill. There aren't that many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and board members, A+ list celebrities, and aristocrats. You're getting into the .01% - tha…

EPI put the top 1% at $737,697 in 2019 and the top 5% at $309,348 [1].

Average Income of those normal workers [2]:

* Lawyer: $148,910

* Dentists (across all specialities): $186,300

* Physicians (across all specialties): $218,850

* Architects: $89,470

* Software engineers (across all specialties): $109,950

* All computer and math specialties: $96,770

* Pilots (All specialties): $163,480 [3]

So these “Normal people” are not even apart of the discussion stop making it seem like all these professions seem like they are in the top 1%. It’s paint a really false picture that skews the conversation at large.

1. https://www.epi.org/blog/top-1-0-of-earners-see-wages-up-157...

2. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#23-0000

3. I think that number might miss out on all the burn out low level contract airline pilots that make peanuts.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#413

Post by boringg »

refurb wrote: post #401
boringg wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's arguing that the system should charge him more and his class of citizens more. Why would he arbitrarily pay more if noone else in his cohort is paying more? Doesn't make any sense. What you are saying is he should make a donation to the US government.

No, those are just weasel words. It’s setting an example by doing what you’re saying others should be doing. It’s why we have the phrase “put your money where you mouth is”. And it’s not a donation. It’s intentionally paying more taxes because that what you think you should be doing. If the law changed he’d be paying the extra money anyways.

Well maybe you could consider it 'paying more taxes' internally but in reality it would be classified as a donation otherwise the US government would give him a refund for overpaying his taxes. And to my prior point I don't see how that gets anyone else on board.

The law won't change retroactively so I don't see "If the law changed he’d be paying the extra money anyways." makes any sense.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#414

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

aiisjustanif wrote: post #412
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of the top 1% are "normal workers" like me - engineers at Google - or my cousin - a radiologist - or one of my best friends - an investment banker - or lawyers, or owners of successful small businesses, etc... These "normal workers" pay a lot of that 40% of the tax bill. There aren't that many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and board members, A+ list celebrities, and aristocrats. You're getting into the .01% - tha…

EPI put the top 1% at $737,697 in 2019 and the top 5% at $309,348 [1]. Average Income of those normal workers [2]: * Lawyer: $148,910 * Dentists (across all specialities): $186,300 * Physicians (across all specialties): $218,850 * Architects: $89,470 * Software engineers (across all specialties): $109,950 * All computer and math specialties: $96,770 * Pilots (All specialties): $163,480 [3] So these “Normal people” ar…

You can use data from the IRS [1].

The cutoff for the 1% for households is around $550k. For individuals it's around $400k.

The median salary for radiologists is $422k [2].

The median salary for a Google Sr Engineer is >$350k [3] (not including Google stock appreciation - which pushes this well into the $500k range).

[1] https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income...

[2] https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/radiologist...

[3] https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engi...

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#415

Post by ABCLAW »

tomnipotent wrote: post #248
roenxi wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article is saying top 1% income in the US is numbers higher than $400k! The median was something like $50k or $80k last time I checked. Those aren't normal workers, those are exactly there sort of people who are seen as not contributing their fair share. They physically can't be working harder than a median worker but they're getting multiples of the salary. If someone is going to be supporting society, they are…

> Those aren't normal workers What's your definition of a normal worker? Lawyers, doctors, dentists, pilots, architects and programmers sound like normal workers to me. This is still millions of people, and I imagine they would think they're normal workers, too. But Fortune 500 CEOs? Well, there's only... 500. Even the combined payroll of the MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL, and MLS is less than 10,000 professional athletes where…

>What's your definition of a normal worker? Lawyers, doctors, dentists, pilots, architects and programmers sound like normal workers to me.

We're not. Lawyer income is not on a normal distribution.

People making >400k a year are owners/partners in a successful firm. Most of these people work hard, yes, but they make their big dollars off leverage; the amount of margin they can accrue from billing out the work of lower ranked lawyers on files they've brought in. Some don't even do legal work. It's very tough to lump these guys in with 'normal workers'.

For the people doing low-cost-jurisdiction bulk lawyer work, they make closer to 25-35$/hr as contractors. Which is almost an order of magnitude less. These are normal workers.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#416

Post by GFischer »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #252
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of the top 1% are "normal workers" like me - engineers at Google - or my cousin - a radiologist - or one of my best friends - an investment banker - or lawyers, or owners of successful small businesses, etc... These "normal workers" pay a lot of that 40% of the tax bill. There aren't that many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and board members, A+ list celebrities, and aristocrats. You're getting into the .01% - tha…

First, I assume when you write "normal workers" that you mean non-executives and non-passive income earners. (Executives can get a lot of equity or dividends that accrue taxes at lower rates; passive income earners use asset depreciation to lessen tax burden.) The top 1% in the US is ~400K USD. Real question for OP (and others): What do you think is a reasonable effective income tax rate? (Please do not confuse effec…

I pay more than 55% in effective tax rate, and my income is about 60k USD a year.

I live in Uruguay, South America - my taxes include healthcare and retirement.

It's definitely not ideal and it's crippling my chance of ever owning a home, but it does pay for a lot of social services way beyond what the U.S. provides - key differences being state provided healthcare and education up to and including the university level.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#417

Post by throwaway2037 »

GFischer wrote: post #416
throwaway2037 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I assume when you write "normal workers" that you mean non-executives and non-passive income earners. (Executives can get a lot of equity or dividends that accrue taxes at lower rates; passive income earners use asset depreciation to lessen tax burden.) The top 1% in the US is ~400K USD. Real question for OP (and others): What do you think is a reasonable effective income tax rate? (Please do not confuse effec…

I pay more than 55% in effective tax rate, and my income is about 60k USD a year. I live in Uruguay, South America - my taxes include healthcare and retirement. It's definitely not ideal and it's crippling my chance of ever owning a home, but it does pay for a lot of social services way beyond what the U.S. provides - key differences being state provided healthcare and education up to and including the university lev…

Wow. This is a great reply. Thank you for your honesty. I hope more people will leave valuable, personal stories like you.

Do you feel the healthcare and national pension are high quality ("good value")?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#418

Post by throwaway2037 »

bradlys wrote: post #379
throwaway2037 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the other comments, I looked closer at your choice of professions. 1) Engineers at Google earning 400K+ USD per year are receiving a large chunk in stock grants. I guess 1/3 to 1/2. (And the last 10 years have been very, very good for equity prices in tech majors.) I assume those receive capital gains tax treatment when sold. If held for at least one year, you receive generous tax savings. Is that fair? 2) Ra…

RSUs and such don’t have capital gains treatment like you might be imagining. If you sell the day you vest, you get income taxed. If you sell a year later, you get income taxed. You will only get capital gains on that which you earned above what you got when you vested. (No different than just selling the stock and buying it again immediately - you will owe income tax even if you still hold the stock btw) Only ISOs a…

Thank you for valuable information about RSUs. You are right, the tax advantages are lower than I proposed!

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#419

Post by throwaway2037 »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #383
throwaway2037 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the other comments, I looked closer at your choice of professions. 1) Engineers at Google earning 400K+ USD per year are receiving a large chunk in stock grants. I guess 1/3 to 1/2. (And the last 10 years have been very, very good for equity prices in tech majors.) I assume those receive capital gains tax treatment when sold. If held for at least one year, you receive generous tax savings. Is that fair? 2) Ra…

1 - RSUs are taxed as earned income from the time they vest. That means - if I was granted $75k worth of Google stock to be paid this year - but it has quadrupled in value... Upon vesting - I'll receive $300k worth of Google stock this year... I pay "earned" income tax on all $300k of that - meaning, after taxes, I get about ~$185k of that. If I should hold that for a year - and it goes up 20% in value - I would pay…

Thank you for valuable information about RSUs. You are right, the tax advantages are lower than I proposed!

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#420

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

bradlys wrote: post #379
throwaway2037 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the other comments, I looked closer at your choice of professions. 1) Engineers at Google earning 400K+ USD per year are receiving a large chunk in stock grants. I guess 1/3 to 1/2. (And the last 10 years have been very, very good for equity prices in tech majors.) I assume those receive capital gains tax treatment when sold. If held for at least one year, you receive generous tax savings. Is that fair? 2) Ra…

RSUs and such don’t have capital gains treatment like you might be imagining. If you sell the day you vest, you get income taxed. If you sell a year later, you get income taxed. You will only get capital gains on that which you earned above what you got when you vested. (No different than just selling the stock and buying it again immediately - you will owe income tax even if you still hold the stock btw) Only ISOs a…

Interesting. Does your company not withhold shares for taxes when they vest for you? I thought this was required.

Meaning - your second option isn't really an option.

Your company withholds some shares when they vest (usually less than you actually pay in taxes). Then, regardless of whether you sell or hold - at the end of the year - the IRS comes after the rest of the "earned income" taxes you owe.

IFF you do hold the shares - for say another 2 years - you pay only capital gains on your stock appreciation for those 2 years (if there is any). You already paid "earned income" tax on the shares the year you received them from your company.

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