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Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

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Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#231

The thing I still can't fathom, all these years after Bush II and then Snowden, is just how little human beings really care about mass surveillance. Yeah, the Snowden leaks made a splash, but the media cycle turned over a couple weeks later and everyone moved onto other things. It's like, if you're of a certain age, you had to read 1984 or whatever in school. You'd think "well, no one would stand for that sort of thi…

I reread 1984 several months back, my first time reading it since 8th grade, I believe.

It was scary as all hell, given the Trump presidency. But it's not just the surveillance that is frightening. Eg, the rewriting of history, and the Two Minutes Hate which seem characteristic of the Trump rallies

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#232
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of things a private citizen can do that a government entity cannot.

Do you have an example ?

In the United States the government is not allowed to get religion. Private Citizens can worship whoever or whatever they want, but the Government isn't supposed to.

Now, you might observe that the country's money says "In God We Trust" on it, its legislature openly prays to the Christian God, its Head of State goes to a Christian church, and its Supreme Court sure seems like they have some very peculiar ideas about how exactly such freedom for "private citizens" manifests...

But in principle the United States does not have an Established Church and is not permitted to establish one. This may be cold comfort de facto if you see Organised Religion with its tendrils deep in the heart of government, but there you are.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#233
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this has never been proven. but it was the final blow to his public image after the rape charges. from then on most intel / infosec people who still remained partial moved on to condemning him. Even if he had collaborated would it matter? what it proves is that you can not do OSINT and be "independant/neutral". bellingcat and all other self-proclaimed citizen journalists know it too. the message here is "if you stand…

The rape charges were falsified. The alleged victim simply asked the police whether he could be forced to do a Std test

this comment was dead so I vouched for it because it's the truth.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#234
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The campaign was certainly surveilled. Have you seen any indication it was unwarranted? I found https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/03/doj-fbi-review-of-s... , which suggests nothing untoward was going on. As I said, I don't think Trump was approaching this in a particularly well-considered way.

> The campaign was certainly surveilled. Have you seen any indication it was unwarranted? If it was any other campaign and there was sigint that a foreign power was trying to influence the campaign then they would have reached out to the candidate to alert him as such. But the intention here was not to prevent foreign tampering. It was to use the FISA process as an excuse to surveil the campaign wholesale.

That's not entirely true either. The Trump campaign did receive intelligence briefings in 2016 and there is evidence, although no official confirmation, that Russia was discussed. [1]

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/20/did-fbi-w...

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#235

The thing I still can't fathom, all these years after Bush II and then Snowden, is just how little human beings really care about mass surveillance. Yeah, the Snowden leaks made a splash, but the media cycle turned over a couple weeks later and everyone moved onto other things. It's like, if you're of a certain age, you had to read 1984 or whatever in school. You'd think "well, no one would stand for that sort of thi…

People will always perfer the guided cage of illusory safety constructed by government over the messy unpredictable chaos of freedom....

how little human beings really care about mass surveillance is just one in the long line of truths that prove that most of the population prefer perceived safety over liberty

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#236
post #235

The thing I still can't fathom, all these years after Bush II and then Snowden, is just how little human beings really care about mass surveillance. Yeah, the Snowden leaks made a splash, but the media cycle turned over a couple weeks later and everyone moved onto other things. It's like, if you're of a certain age, you had to read 1984 or whatever in school. You'd think "well, no one would stand for that sort of thi…

People will always perfer the guided cage of illusory safety constructed by government over the messy unpredictable chaos of freedom.... how little human beings really care about mass surveillance is just one in the long line of truths that prove that most of the population prefer perceived safety over liberty

Maybe, but you are not selling freedom. Your previous comments here make that abundantly clear. People are smarter than you seem to think. They know that for the vast majority, Propertarianism in practice means subservience to the propertied. That's not a rejection of freedom, but rather a defense of what's still left of it.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#237
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a semantic argument. I agree that power flows from consensus. When it doesn't, we're talking about coercion, force, and violence, not power. But the word power is often used colloquially to mean those things: coercion, force, violence, and that's how I was using it.

> This is a semantic argument What argument? > I agree that power flows from consensus. That’s...not what I said, really. > When it doesn't, we're talking about coercion, force, and violence, not power “Power”, at least in the social sense, is the ability to get people to act as you wish; idealized moral or rational persuasion is one mechanism of that, the direct application or imminent threat of violence is a mechan…

First you said "power is itself largely a product of voluntary submission". Then you said "'power', at least in the social sense, is the ability to get people to act as you wish".

These are not commensurate statements. If submission is voluntary, you aren't "getting people" to do anything...they're doing it voluntarily. Anyway, from what you write, it's clear you don't believe that anything is voluntary.

> Idealized moral or rational persuasion is one mechanism of that, the direct application or imminent threat of violence is a mechanism, and there’s a whole spectrum in between. But a leader’s ability, in practice, to apply power (by any mechanism) over a population is largely due to the successful use of power to influence a group of agents to act on behalf of the leader, and their application of power to others, etc. We might talk as if the state is a real concrete thing, but its really just an abstraction of the penumbra of indirect power emanating outward from the leadership.

Power is the possession of a group of people rooted in their ability to act in concert (i.e. their voluntary submission or assent to something). "Persuasion," moral or immoral, rational or irrational, doesn't come into it. And power is never the possession of a leader or a party or anything like that. You mistake power for authority, coercive force, and violence.

For you, all political categories run together in a category you call "power". This view does not acknowledge the fact that people can voluntarily choose to act together. Everything for you is about "persuasion," "threat of violence," "influence," and so on. As I said, you don't believe that anything is voluntary. This is a political philosophy that cannot make meaningful distinctions between political things.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#238
Some of the answers the DoD provided were given in a form that means Wyden's office cannot legally publish specifics on the surveillance; one answer in particular was classified. In the letter Wyden is pushing the DoD to release the information to the public. A Wyden aide told Motherboard that the Senator is unable to make the information public at this time...

It seems strange and troubling to me that a senator would be restricted from making public any government information.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#239

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

The Supreme Court and constitution have always been irrelevant. Ask any former black slave or many laws etc that were trampled on by Presidents:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia

The constitution and Supreme Court do not consider Blacks humans or citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first half of your post contradicts the second half of your post.

No it doesn’t. The condition of slavery wasn’t addressed by interpreting “people” to exclude enslaved people, additional words were added to distinguish enslaved people from free people. But free Black people, for example, were always included in the count of “free persons.” Other laws may have imposed limits. In 1789 women couldn’t vote and in 2021 children still can’t. But they were all included in the definition o…

The first half of your argument is about how the constitution specifies citizens (a subset of people) with "we the people". The second half is about how "we the people" refers to everyone (not a subset of people).
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