Live data from Hacker News

Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

vice.com

191–200 of 265 posts

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#191
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Law is primarily about voluntary submission, not power Power is itself largely a product of voluntary submission, which radiates out. When some people voluntarily submit to the putative leadership, including in its request to back up the leaders orders with force when necessary, to report violations, etc., it increases the inclination of other people of others to submit without force being directly applied, and so…

This is a semantic argument. I agree that power flows from consensus. When it doesn't, we're talking about coercion, force, and violence, not power. But the word power is often used colloquially to mean those things: coercion, force, violence, and that's how I was using it.

> This is a semantic argument

What argument?

> I agree that power flows from consensus.

That’s...not what I said, really.

> When it doesn't, we're talking about coercion, force, and violence, not power

“Power”, at least in the social sense, is the ability to get people to act as you wish; idealized moral or rational persuasion is one mechanism of that, the direct application or imminent threat of violence is a mechanism, and there’s a whole spectrum in between. But a leader’s ability, in practice, to apply power (by any mechanism) over a population is largely due to the successful use of power to influence a group of agents to act on behalf of the leader, and their application of power to others, etc. We might talk as if the state is a real concrete thing, but its really just an abstraction of the penumbra of indirect power emanating outward from the leadership.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#192

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

Congress is corrupt (via lobbyist money) which causes this problem. The DoD tracks large scale threats to our nation. When the economy is rigged, then the establishment worries about the citizen base turning on the establishment. Congress corruption (via lobbyiests) happens by: a) Wall Street rigged economy HF front-running trades, b) Wall Street is rigged c) 2008 Mortgage crisis theft d) Pharma is rigged e) Medical…

What lobby is lobbying for warrantless surveillance?

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#193
post #189
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surveillance is a form of power. Power does not give up power. Law is enforced via power. When it meets a greater power then the law is contravened. Look at the US and how it broke international law to force a plane down that it thought had Snowden.

> Power does not give up power. This isn't true, look at for example the nineteenth amendment (men giving up power).

> This isn't true, look at for example the nineteenth amendment (men giving up power).

That wasn’t giving up power, it was trying to regain power by no longer claiming power through the abstraction of law that there was insufficient support to practically exercise and which claiming, as a result, merely diminished the general power of the State, because it reinforced in the public eye the gulf between law and power, reducing willingness to defer t9 the former in general.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#194

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

> It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution.

What makes you think that they will respect new laws?

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#195
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Law is primarily about voluntary submission, not power Power is itself largely a product of voluntary submission, which radiates out. When some people voluntarily submit to the putative leadership, including in its request to back up the leaders orders with force when necessary, to report violations, etc., it increases the inclination of other people of others to submit without force being directly applied, and so…

This is a semantic argument. I agree that power flows from consensus. When it doesn't, we're talking about coercion, force, and violence, not power. But the word power is often used colloquially to mean those things: coercion, force, violence, and that's how I was using it.

Those are all forms or uses of power. Where English uses one word, "power," the French use two, puissance and pouvoir, referring to "strength/energy" and "influence/control" respectively (and very roughly translated).

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#197
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Law is primarily about voluntary submission, not power. Let me know how that works out for you, k? I can assure you that although state power ultimately comes from the people, the state most definitely will enforce its laws against you, should you break them. That is, unless you're rich and powerful enough to afford the best lawyers and a handful of legislators.

The state is rarely capable of enforcing the law on more than a small minority of lawbreakers because enforcing the law is expensive. If there's a busy road where people are routinely speeding, the state is actually incapable of pulling every single speeder over and ticketing them. Instead, the state relies on setting reasonable speed limits and scaring drivers with the prospect of fines. This isn't a personal philos…

>The state is rarely capable of enforcing the law on more than a small minority of lawbreakers

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” ― A.I. Solzhenitsyn

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#198
post #66

I don't support that kind of surveillance. That said, are they really in illegality ? Can I buy this type of localization data as a private individual ? If so, then they don't need a warrant, am I right ?

There are plenty of things a private citizen can do that a government entity cannot.

Do you have an example ?

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#199
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text of the US constitution explicitly talks about the rights of people, not citizens - so I would argue that the constitution itself has always prohibited this. However, there is a long history of interpreting 'people' to mean specific groups - from only white people to only citizens.

> The text of the US constitution explicitly talks about the rights of people, not citizens - so I would argue that the constitution itself has always prohibited this. No, it talks about "the people." As in the preamble: "We the People of the United States." > However, there is a long history of interpreting 'people' to mean specific groups - from only white people to only citizens. Playing with the interpretation of…

>As in the preamble: "We the People of the United States."

The preamble is discussing who is creating the constitution and why. It does not say it only applies to certain individuals. I don't see how you can use that to argue that the government is free to infringe upon the rights of noncitizens.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#200
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law is primarily about voluntary submission, not power. A law that is followed only as long as it is enforced is not much of a law and is unlikely to last. In terms of your broader point, something about restricting the authority of a law-giving entity via the law seems paradoxical. An example of this paradox is the fact that it's difficult to have standing to sue the government over an illegal spying program that is…

> Law is primarily about voluntary submission, not power. Let me know how that works out for you, k? I can assure you that although state power ultimately comes from the people, the state most definitely will enforce its laws against you, should you break them. That is, unless you're rich and powerful enough to afford the best lawyers and a handful of legislators.

>Let me know how that works out for you, k?

"voluntary submission" sounds like people that walk around claiming to be a sovereign citizen thereby exempt from "laws". i always find it funny that the ones screaming this the loudest are usually in the midst of some sort of legal troubles.

Post reply on HN