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Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

nytimes.com

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Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#471

Post by selimthegrim »

Markoff wrote: post #440
dalyons wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would choose what is happening now in India instead?

if Indian numbers have to be trusted they are really not that bad, some European countries had even worse numbers per capita people sometimes forget the size of Indian population and just look at nominal numbers instead per capita numbers, considering how poor is India and how bad is Indian healthcare these numbers comparable wiuth Europe are actually pretty low

Those European countries have markedly different age pyramids than India

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#472

Post by cycomanic »

flukus wrote: post #429
bonzini wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese scientists cottoned on to this very early China didn't even admit human to human transmission until mid January. They haven't even admitted when the outbreak started, which almost certainly wasn't November 2019 since there are suspect cases in Europe already at the beginning of December, of people that had never been in Wuhan.

> China didn't even admit human to human transmission until mid January. Because it was even newer and more unknown at that point. Wuhan was in lockdown on the 23rd of January, so they had a pretty good idea by then. Meanwhile the rest of the world twiddled their thumbs and lost the opportunity to contain it. > They haven't even admitted when the outbreak started, which almost certainly wasn't November 2019 How do yo…

> How do you "admit" something unknown? Either way we know it couldn't have been too much before November/December, considering everything we know about how fast it spreads.

Actually, this is not so clear. The evidence of community cases in November/December in e.g. France were not picked up at the time either. There is a phase were a new disease can fly completely under the radar, because we are still in a very slow growth and only see a few isolated cases, which often don't even get seen by the same health professionals. This is particularly true in the case of covid were there is evidence that spreading is disproportionately from "superspreaders" (unless some of that information changed now?). So unless there was a superspreader, you only have few isolated cases.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#473

Post by Bancakes »

livinginfear wrote: post #221

I think it's worth noting that among the demographics that frequent this site there is ostensibly a deep distrust and skepticism of the American government on matters of surveillance, and law enforcement. Yet simultaneously there is ostensibly a high degree of trust in the motives and competency of the American government when it comes to COVID. There's been multiple threads lately, including one that is on the front…

One saves lives, the others ruin and take lives.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#474

Post by kelnos »

rsfern wrote: post #287
josephcsible wrote: post #254

I find it interesting that the people who screamed "trust/listen to the CDC!" the loudest when the CDC's position was "everyone wear your mask and stay home as much as you can" are now the ones looking hardest for reasons to ignore/downplay/criticize the CDC's guidance.

I think most probably have a more nuanced position than that. My personal hesitation is that people are just going to ignore the explicit condition of full vaccination. Worst case outcome could result in dragging the pandemic out and providing opportunity for new variants to develop. A concern closer to home is that this will increase risk for my parents, who have been hesitant about the mRNA vaccines and refuse J&J…

Please tell your parents the truth, that the J&J vaccine is not produced using a fetal cell line.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#475

Post by benjaminwootton »

andreilys wrote: post #368
codelord wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally follow the CDC guidelines. I think if everyone equally trusted CDC we wouldn't have the kind of outbreaks that we have seen in the past year. So raising doubts in CDC's credibility overall is hurtful IMO. That doesn't mean we shouldn't debate a particular recommendation and take it all as Gospel. Meaningful debate about a particular issue is useful. A general statement against credibility of CDC IMO is n…

The CDC/surgeon general recommended not wearing masks at the beginning of the pandemic, while Silicon Valley was way ahead of the curve (meanwhile hit pieces were posted by journalists with an axe to grind saying they we’re overreacting). So yes it has lost its credibility.

Genuine question, why did they not lose credibility when they started recommending them due to political pressure rather than “the science”? As I understand it, there is still very flimsy scientific backing for the effectiveness of masks.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#476

Post by dalyons »

Markoff wrote: post #440
dalyons wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would choose what is happening now in India instead?

if Indian numbers have to be trusted they are really not that bad, some European countries had even worse numbers per capita people sometimes forget the size of Indian population and just look at nominal numbers instead per capita numbers, considering how poor is India and how bad is Indian healthcare these numbers comparable wiuth Europe are actually pretty low

I don’t think anyone trusts the Indian government numbers; they are downplaying, lying, and just overwhelmed. It will take a long time probably before before we get a real accounting for deaths, but everything I’ve read points to at least 5x - 10x the official numbers.

You’ll eventually get your answer though to the question of “what if we didn’t do lockdowns and just let it run” - I don’t think it will be pretty.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#477

Post by buzzert »

walrus01 wrote: post #446
thathndude wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your point cuts both ways. People can’t appreciate how big the US population is and the normal death rate. Every year around 2.8 million people die in the US from all causes. Around 7,500 people every day. So 450 a day isn’t that incredible of a number given the scale of the population. When an airplane crashes, the reaction is less about loss of 100-300 lives, but the way in which it happens. If a loaded 747…

That is a good point. Somewhat similar, we seem to accept in the range of 10,000-11,000 drunk driving deaths a year as fairly normal [1]. Because it is, for the most part, a widely spread out set of events with a few cars crashing by themselves, or into one other car... Yet we still drive everywhere. But if you ask people, someone might tell you that they're more nervous flying (despite statistics clearly showing tha…

How about 1,300 deaths a day from smoking?

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#478

Post by concordDance »

codelord wrote: post #363
livinginfear wrote: post #221

I think it's worth noting that among the demographics that frequent this site there is ostensibly a deep distrust and skepticism of the American government on matters of surveillance, and law enforcement. Yet simultaneously there is ostensibly a high degree of trust in the motives and competency of the American government when it comes to COVID. There's been multiple threads lately, including one that is on the front…

I personally follow the CDC guidelines. I think if everyone equally trusted CDC we wouldn't have the kind of outbreaks that we have seen in the past year. So raising doubts in CDC's credibility overall is hurtful IMO. That doesn't mean we shouldn't debate a particular recommendation and take it all as Gospel. Meaningful debate about a particular issue is useful. A general statement against credibility of CDC IMO is n…

> I personally follow the CDC guidelines

I don't believe you. Do you use a food thermometer when cooking food? Do you make sure to cook eggs until the yoke is firm? If you're a woman, do you make sure you never have more than 1 (alcoholic) drink in a particular day? Do you never eat rare steak?

People ignore almost everything the CDC says in their regular lives as the CDC is completely optimizing for health, not quality of life.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#479

Post by chrischen »

99_00 wrote: post #414
chrischen wrote: post #381

To an essential worker, how can they tell if someone is vaccinated or not? This is like when I got citizenship they told us all that as citizens we no longer needed to prove our citizenship (which may be true, but anyone could claim to be a citizen to get this right).

If the essential worker was concerned wouldn't they have gotten vaccinated? In which case, what difference does it make if the other person was vaccinated or not?

Essential worker can a) be an anti-vaxxer or b) unable to get the vaccine for various reasons (allergies).

Now, if it’s a) and you’re arguing that maybe they deserve the risk of infection then that’s another argument.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#480

Post by johnchristopher »

herbst wrote: post #416
paganel wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still don't understand why so many countries can't be more honest about these things Depending on the jurisdiction and on your political opponents what the Swiss virus guy did is liable to send you to prison for intentionally lying and acting on that lie when employed as a public servant. Most probably the political debate is less vicious in Switzerland and that won't happen to your virus guy, but where I live (E…

Interesting point. Guess it comes down to his words as the initial wording was more like 'in the current situation it is not necessary to wear masks' not trump's vision of 'masks don't work' which would have been an obvious lie.

In Belgium we had a third version: "masks are dangerous because people don't know how to adjust and wear them, they touch them too much (spreading the virus) and masks give a false sense of security that will lead to more contagions".

The chief of our CDC equivalent said he was shopping in supermarket without mask.

Then they admitted saying that because stocks were too low and wearing a mask was gradually made mandatory and they told us to make our own masks.

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