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Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

nytimes.com

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Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#371
Got some karma to burn so here goes: I disagree with this and the reasons are below.

- it is inconsistent and imprecise. Which vaccine? There are a couple of variants now, vaccines have different levels of protection against different variants and the jury is still out on some new up-and-coming things coming out of India. It also makes you ask a couple of questions. Why should you wear the mask when using public transit or healthcare facilities? Wouldn't it be more dangerous or whatever if you're waiting for over an hour at the DMV? What about schools? We can vaccinate >12 yo now. Does this apply to them when in-person schooling?

- it sends the wrong message in an already sensitive environment wrt to 'mask wearing'. When Texas lifted the mask mandate, people expected to not be wearing masks everywhere. Vaccinated people who only read headlines will walk into hospitals and get into arguments with the staff because 'that's what the CDC said'.

- it is contrary to the current consensus from field epidemiologists [1].

- we need to keep in mind that the CDC has public health as a priority. Not your individual private health status. So their goal is to manage large scale outbreaks and not necessarily to make sure that you or your family is safe. This is why guidelines were along the lines of 'gatherings of more than 5 people'. That's not to ensure that those 5 people don't get infected but to ensure that out of the 5 that may, the infection rate will not drown the healthcare system. Anyway, about that, there are still (granted very very few) breakthrough cases. This means that for people who are immunocompromised or have undergone treatments considered risk factors, this guideline needs to raise an eyebrow or two. It is up to the individual to decide what to do. Risk of getting infected vs the convenience of NOT putting on a piece of cloth indoors, which may decrease that risk.

- as any guidance requiring self-policing (vaccinated people) this is doomed to fail. I'm sure they ran the numbers and decided that from a public health standpoint the healthcare system will be able to handle small outbreaks here and there...

- for some reason it feels like an attempt at creating an incentive for getting a vaccine. This type of thing has the same smell like the initial mask guideline which was intended to protect the supply of PPE.

And to the hn-ers screaming 'but the science' 'but the hypocrisy', well it is possible to agree and disagree with the CDC at different times and on different issues. The world is not black/white are we're not in a cult (well, not all of us).

[1] https://archive.is/NIq5q

On a personal note, I will keep wearing the mask indoors although I'm vaccinated, thank you very much. Another thing I learned since last year is that wearing a mask gives me a level or privacy I only dreamed of. Also I did not get my annual cold. So, as a free American I'll keep wearing it indoors as long as I'm not breaking the law (note that when mask mandates are lifted it's not phrased as 'masks are illegals' but 'masks are not required') and as long as other countries with people flying in and out of are in deep COVID shit. Deep enough to spawn new and improved COVIDs. I'll also reserve the right to tell anyone to fuck right off if they feel strongly about me covering my face when 'look what the CDC is saying' 'but the science we all ignored now agrees with what we wanted to do last year hurr durr'.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#372

I think it's worth noting that among the demographics that frequent this site there is ostensibly a deep distrust and skepticism of the American government on matters of surveillance, and law enforcement. Yet simultaneously there is ostensibly a high degree of trust in the motives and competency of the American government when it comes to COVID. There's been multiple threads lately, including one that is on the front…

Public health recommendations for the individual are quite different to secret surveillance programs.

We'd be in a very different conversation if the CDC was telling everyone "we need you to take this pill. No we're not telling you what's in it, or why you should take it and no one else in the world will be reviewing it."

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I'm quite surprised how deep the conspiracy theories and suspicions against the state go in the US. You don't need tp take everything at face value, but to be so suspicious of essential institutions like the CDC seems crazy to me. Except for a vocal but tiny minority there's a lot of trust in the institutions of the EU and (Western) Europe, where citizrns at most worry about incompetence, not malicious…

One need only go back about 80 years to find horrific abuses by public health officials in both Europe and America (e.g. involuntary sterilization, to say nothing of Nazi experimentation). What I find strange is that Europeans have such a short memory regarding these things…

You don't have to go back far at all to find corporations doing evil either, and yet America forgets how bad they are on a daily basis.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#374
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the CDC's original statements on masks (they aren't necessary, they're only effective at preventing the spread of COVID if the wearer has a medical degree, don't wear masks on planes, etc) contributed a lot to the distrust and politicization of mask wearing. When you expect an institution to always be impartial and tell the truth, those sorts of white lies can quickly erode trust.

Please also note it is unnecessary to do any additional analysis to describe the example cited as a "lie." We know it was a deliberate lie because the then head of the CDC has said so [1] - unless he was lying about claiming he was lying there's not much doubt in that case. The CDC lie when it suits them isn't something that's really debatable. Does it matter that they lied? This is the proposition that can be debate…

I know this gets repeated a lot, but that doesn't make it more true. Show me the quote where he said "we lied about masks", and "we changed our message about masks" doesn't count.

The reality is that the knowledge about Covid changed significantly in march/April last year. In particular the understanding about unsymptomatic spread lead to a significant change of thinking. That makes sense, if the virus only spreads from sick people, the advice for everyone to wear a mask is not good health policy especially if there is a shortage. You want to prioritise people who get in contact with sick people and prevent sick people to go out. However, if unsymptomatic people spread the virus, you want everyone to wear masks, because you can't prevent spreaders to go out. But the masks are different, you want cloth masks more than n95, because it is about protecting others.

The below article is one which elaborates on the whole discussion

https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/politics/2020/12/29/did-...

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#375

I think it's worth noting that among the demographics that frequent this site there is ostensibly a deep distrust and skepticism of the American government on matters of surveillance, and law enforcement. Yet simultaneously there is ostensibly a high degree of trust in the motives and competency of the American government when it comes to COVID. There's been multiple threads lately, including one that is on the front…

I personally follow the CDC guidelines. I think if everyone equally trusted CDC we wouldn't have the kind of outbreaks that we have seen in the past year. So raising doubts in CDC's credibility overall is hurtful IMO. That doesn't mean we shouldn't debate a particular recommendation and take it all as Gospel. Meaningful debate about a particular issue is useful. A general statement against credibility of CDC IMO is n…

[deleted]

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CDC is not law enforcement. The talent it attracts, its mission statement, its mode of operation are all different. The statements of fact they release pertain to public health with no human adversarial motives. The research they use to substantiate their claims can be peer reviewed, duplicated and critiqued.

"The statements of fact they release pertain to public health with no human adversarial motives." The CDC has knowingly lied about the efficacy of masks intending to trick the public to deprive them of useful medical gear. They were slow to identify the spread of covid as aerosol based, even after it was widely known. CDC guidance focused on "6 feet apart" instead of the importance of ventilation. The CDC temporarily…

The temporary halt seems necessary -- the usual treatment had bad effects, and the proper treatment needed to be disseminated to doctors and nurses.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#377

For some people the goalposts are moving faster than the speed of light. The goal was to flatten the curve. Remember that? Flatten. The. Curve. Is the curve not flat? How much flatter do you want it to be before returning to normal life? Do you want literally 0.000% risk?

Yes, I want the virus eliminated.

Can I ask why? That feels like an enormously bigger lift for not much more gain over "the virus exists but vaccines relegate it to the level of a mere cold amongst vaccinated people," for instance.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#378
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A handful of people on the internet do not make the vast majority of people or organizations. Look at the messaging coming from the President today, in line with the CDC. WA state is set to be fully open by June 30th at the latest based on current trends combined with the CDC guidance.

I meant people in positions of power who make rules that other people have to follow, more so than random people on the Internet just giving their opinions. For example, I predict it will take a lot longer for mask mandates to go away than it did for them to appear when the CDC first said so.

"I want to be clear about what the CDC is saying – and what the CDC isn’t saying. The CDC is saying they have concluded that fully vaccinated people are at very low risk for getting COVID-19. Therefore, if you’re fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask."

-President Biden

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#379
Ask yourself, why now? I work at a vaccine center and they are all slowing down. For those who aren’t “hesitant” but maybe haven’t received their shot for lack of urgency (convenience issues/complacency), going to a store full of people not wearing their mask may make them feel less secure and will provide urgency to get their shots. Interesting strategy but as the unvaccinated anti-maskers stop wearing their masks in public (no one is going to check their vax card), you are going to see outbreaks and death. Let’s see if it works to get more people vaccinated.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#380
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ohio is holding five million-dollar lottery drawings for which only vaccinated people are eligible, and I expect other states to follow suit: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/0...

I sincerely hope the trend of tying very personal, individual healthcare decisions with what is essentially gambling, NEVER spreads beyond the COVID vaccine. I don’t know of many other ways to cheapen the significance of one’s own healthcare or the science that drives it than something like this.

I'm sure somebody will want to create vaccine coins, where the crypto currency are mined by people getting vaccinated, or walked their 1k steps for the day and what have you
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