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Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

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Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#51

Post by chrisseaton »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #50
chrisseaton wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very long stream of very successful business decisions.

Would you characterize Donald Trump as smarter than yourself? I mean, he made it all the way to President of the United States, have you ever been President? Hell, Einstein never was President, nor was he ever a Billionaire... Trump was smarter than Einstein apparently. (Well, Einstein was German, bad example... They never made it to president, or billionaire status though I don't think... It could be said Trump was…

I think you're making a silly argument and you already know it. Einstein and Trump weren't working in the same fields so you can't compare their achievements.

Is Donald Trump smart? Well I think it's a non-partisan fact that he outsmarted the entire US political establishment in 2016. You decide how smart that is for yourself.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#52

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #51
gremlinsinc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you characterize Donald Trump as smarter than yourself? I mean, he made it all the way to President of the United States, have you ever been President? Hell, Einstein never was President, nor was he ever a Billionaire... Trump was smarter than Einstein apparently. (Well, Einstein was German, bad example... They never made it to president, or billionaire status though I don't think... It could be said Trump was…

I think you're making a silly argument and you already know it. Einstein and Trump weren't working in the same fields so you can't compare their achievements. Is Donald Trump smart? Well I think it's a non-partisan fact that he outsmarted the entire US political establishment in 2016. You decide how smart that is for yourself.

> You decide how smart that is for yourself.

His campaign has been purposely based on lies and hate, which to me seems like an exact opposite of "smart" even if successful.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#53

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #52
chrisseaton wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're making a silly argument and you already know it. Einstein and Trump weren't working in the same fields so you can't compare their achievements. Is Donald Trump smart? Well I think it's a non-partisan fact that he outsmarted the entire US political establishment in 2016. You decide how smart that is for yourself.

> You decide how smart that is for yourself. His campaign has been purposely based on lies and hate, which to me seems like an exact opposite of "smart" even if successful.

I think you're confusing 'smart' with 'moral'.

An immoral person can be smart. And in fact it's a common and dangerous mistake to assume someone's stupid because you think they're immoral.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#54

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #53
seba_dos1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You decide how smart that is for yourself. His campaign has been purposely based on lies and hate, which to me seems like an exact opposite of "smart" even if successful.

I think you're confusing 'smart' with 'moral'. An immoral person can be smart. And in fact it's a common and dangerous mistake to assume someone's stupid because you think they're immoral.

I don't. I believe that such immoral strategies are in fact easier to pull off than legitimate ones, that's why I called it "exact opposite of smart". It seems to me that it's you who's confusing "smart" with "successful".

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#55

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #54
chrisseaton wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confusing 'smart' with 'moral'. An immoral person can be smart. And in fact it's a common and dangerous mistake to assume someone's stupid because you think they're immoral.

I don't. I believe that such immoral strategies are in fact easier to pull off than legitimate ones, that's why I called it "exact opposite of smart". It seems to me that it's you who's confusing "smart" with "successful".

What could be more smart than doing the thing that makes you successful?

Are you arguing it would have been smarter to do something that was unsuccessful?

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#56

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #55
seba_dos1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. I believe that such immoral strategies are in fact easier to pull off than legitimate ones, that's why I called it "exact opposite of smart". It seems to me that it's you who's confusing "smart" with "successful".

What could be more smart than doing the thing that makes you successful? Are you arguing it would have been smarter to do something that was unsuccessful?

Absolutely. Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win.

I find it really weird that you even ask.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#57

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #56
chrisseaton wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could be more smart than doing the thing that makes you successful? Are you arguing it would have been smarter to do something that was unsuccessful?

Absolutely. Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win. I find it really weird that you even ask.

> Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win.

A smart person dutifully operates as best they can within the rules.

But a smarter person realises that actually the rules aren't what everyone thought they were in the first place.

There's lots of examples in history.

Navies originally thought that submarine warfare was unfair somehow or against some unwritten gentlemanly rule. The less smart thing to do would be to take that rule and not use submarines. The smarter thing to do would be to say 'don't care' and build submarines anyway.

Football isn't a good example because you're volunteering to play by the rules in the first place.

Operating inside someone else's artificial rules is not smart.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#58

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #57
seba_dos1 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win. I find it really weird that you even ask.

> Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win. A smart person dutifully operates as best they can within the rules. But a smarter person realises that actually the rules aren't what everyone thought they were in the first plac…

So, basically your point is that saying "don't care" about "unwritten gentlemanly rules" is an indicator of one's intelligence.

I'm pretty sure that it certainly is an indicator of several personality traits, but it doesn't tell you anything about being "smart".

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#59

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #58
chrisseaton wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win. A smart person dutifully operates as best they can within the rules. But a smarter person realises that actually the rules aren't what everyone thought they were in the first plac…

So, basically your point is that saying "don't care" about "unwritten gentlemanly rules" is an indicator of one's intelligence. I'm pretty sure that it certainly is an indicator of several personality traits, but it doesn't tell you anything about being "smart".

If everyone is just mistakenly assuming that these rules are important or were ever really rules at all... and you're the sole person to realise that actually these were never rules all along and you don't need to follow them... then yeah I think that's a really smart insight to make.

Challenging assumptions, thinking outside of constraints, re-assessing the foundations of the way we do things, redefining what is possible... smart.

Galileo had to break the 'rules' to model the solar system. Do you think he would have been smarter if he'd followed the current thinking instead?

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#60

Post by jart »

gregjor wrote: post #48
jart wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're comparing dancing to sports and orthography to written SAT, then I get the impression you might not even understand what either of things really mean. The medical literature says you're literally incapable of doing it, regardless of how hard you try. Now, that doesn't say anything about your value as person. No one cares if you're bad at writing wedding cards. In fact the sorts of people who are good at tho…

No medical literature says I or anyone else is incapable of dancing or orthography. A statistical average of autistics showing this or that impairment over a large sample says nothing about individuals. You should read the diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorders, which includes what is called Asperger’s. Here it is in case you don’t have the DSM-5 handy: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html A pers…

I was going off the primary materials. It's pretty clear that you won't believe that being diagnosed with a disability (well, according to ada, or whichever word you feel most appropriate) means you can't dance and write wedding cards the same way other people do. Have you considered simply challenging the definition? Instead of all this big picture epistemology? You can change the culture so that dance for example includes that thing kraftwerk does. Then no one can laugh because the perception of what it means to be a dancer became more inclusive.
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