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Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

andarilhoacordado.medium.com

41–50 of 68 posts

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is that given the exact set of capital, connections, knowledge and market conditions that Musk initially had you wouldn't be able to make business decisions like he did because you're not intelligent enough?

I doubt it. It takes intelligence to make the best of those resources to create a success. What's so unlikely to you about the idea that he's relatively intelligent and that's played a part in his success? People want to pretend it's all luck and connections. I don't think it is, and I think people pretend that to make themselves feel like they could have done it if only they had the same resources.

> What's so unlikely to you about the idea that he's relatively intelligent and that's played a part in his success?

Nothing, I haven't even questioned his intelligence or said anything about him at all.

I just don't have a slightest clue in how to assess his intelligence and compare it to mine based on what I know about him, which makes me wonder what's making it so obvious to you. Especially when talking about things so blurry as "business decisions", since there are so many outside factors at play in any business that one's intelligence is never a single thing that determines business success.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#42
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is that given the exact set of capital, connections, knowledge and market conditions that Musk initially had you wouldn't be able to make business decisions like he did because you're not intelligent enough?

Cannot answer for the parent commenter, but I know I wouldn't be able to make decisions like he did. Just for one specific example: even if I was in his exact situation back then, I wouldn't mortgage out my house, ask friends and family for loans, cash out all of my savings, and then dump it all into my failing green energy startup during its "make it or break it moment". But he did, and none of what Tesla/SpaceX are…

All you talk about in your example is risk-taking, which is orthogonal to intelligence and is heavily influenced by one's economic situation anyway.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. It takes intelligence to make the best of those resources to create a success. What's so unlikely to you about the idea that he's relatively intelligent and that's played a part in his success? People want to pretend it's all luck and connections. I don't think it is, and I think people pretend that to make themselves feel like they could have done it if only they had the same resources.

> What's so unlikely to you about the idea that he's relatively intelligent and that's played a part in his success? Nothing, I haven't even questioned his intelligence or said anything about him at all. I just don't have a slightest clue in how to assess his intelligence and compare it to mine based on what I know about him, which makes me wonder what's making it so obvious to you. Especially when talking about thin…

> makes me wonder what's making it so obvious to you

Occam’s Razor. Maybe it’s possible it’s all sheer luck? But most likely - he’s a shrewd and intelligent business man.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#44
post #40
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's exactly what makes you different, according to the medical literature. Normal people deal with their personality quirks without thinking about it. That's what makes them normal. With you, it required an act of willpower. Just like, if normal people wanted to innovate, it would require an act of willpower on their part; whereas for you, you've been doing it your whole life.

But I'm not different in that respect. Everyone has different abilities. No individual is "normal," that's a statistical artifact. Everyone has personality quirks, whether they are aware of them or not, and has to adapt their personality constantly. I don't think of my quirks and shortcomings as disabilities or medical issues, anymore than I would think a left-handed person has a disorder, even if they aren't (statis…

Not being able to dance is another thing the medical literature says people in your position can't do, along with orthography. Have you considered that willpower is uncommon in people, due to how willfulness is traditionally punished and killed by centuries of war? That seems to be why autistic people usually don't change and why neurotypical people usually don't innovate.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#45
post #44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'm not different in that respect. Everyone has different abilities. No individual is "normal," that's a statistical artifact. Everyone has personality quirks, whether they are aware of them or not, and has to adapt their personality constantly. I don't think of my quirks and shortcomings as disabilities or medical issues, anymore than I would think a left-handed person has a disorder, even if they aren't (statis…

Not being able to dance is another thing the medical literature says people in your position can't do, along with orthography. Have you considered that willpower is uncommon in people, due to how willfulness is traditionally punished and killed by centuries of war? That seems to be why autistic people usually don't change and why neurotypical people usually don't innovate.

I think we’re going out into the weeds. I’m not looking for explanations or excuses. I can’t dance because I never cared to learn, not because I’m physically unable to do it. I have played sports and done other activities that require coordination. I got top score on my verbal/written SAT so orthography isn’t a problem for me either. The mistake would be saying to myself “I have Asperger’s so I can’t dance or write,” which would just be making excuses.

I don’t think willpower is uncommon, that’s not my experience. I don’t know what war has to do with it — consider the willpower required to participate in that kind of conflict, or survive it. What evidence do you have that “autistic people don’t change” and “neurotypical people don’t innovate?”

To pump up the meme that people diagnosed with autism or Asperger’s are geniuses stuck in a shell it’s become popular to retroactively diagnose historical figures. Da Vinci? Autistic. Lincoln? Aspeger’s. Elon Musk — clearly a successful and high-functioning person, may have some Asperger’s symptoms, or he may just say that because it’s cool and lets him off the hook for acting like a jerk sometimes. I don’t know. I don’t think every “innovator” is an undiagnosed autistic. It seems obvious that most innovation must come from neurotypicals because they are, by definition (in the frame of this discussion anyway) the large majority.

Autistic people do change. Children often grow out of autistic behavior at least partially. Not always, some never improve, but many do.

There’s no line between autistic/Asperger’s and neurotypical, those are phony boxes that insufficiently describe a literal spectrum of behaviors and personality gifts and deficits. At the extremes of the spectrum you find people who are seriously impaired, but along most of the curve people function well enough.

Think about physical abilities. Most people can walk and get around and do day-to-day things. Some can play basketball a few can play like Michael Jordan. Some struggle to stand up, a few can’t get out of bed. There’s a range of physical abilities and everyone is born with some gifts and some deficits. I think it’s the same with mental abilities and personality.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#46
post #45
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being able to dance is another thing the medical literature says people in your position can't do, along with orthography. Have you considered that willpower is uncommon in people, due to how willfulness is traditionally punished and killed by centuries of war? That seems to be why autistic people usually don't change and why neurotypical people usually don't innovate.

I think we’re going out into the weeds. I’m not looking for explanations or excuses. I can’t dance because I never cared to learn, not because I’m physically unable to do it. I have played sports and done other activities that require coordination. I got top score on my verbal/written SAT so orthography isn’t a problem for me either. The mistake would be saying to myself “I have Asperger’s so I can’t dance or write,”…

If you're comparing dancing to sports and orthography to written SAT, then I get the impression you might not even understand what either of things really mean. The medical literature says you're literally incapable of doing it, regardless of how hard you try. Now, that doesn't say anything about your value as person. No one cares if you're bad at writing wedding cards. In fact the sorts of people who are good at those things would probably feel excited to have the opportunity to feel useful if you were to delegate the task to them.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a moral judgment or a be-all-and-end-all of a person's value. But it is, even though it actually means nothing at all. Let me try and explain. Our society prides itself on being both rational and egalitarian at the same time. Its most basic ideological paradigm basically says: "everyone is equal". Of course, that is a meaningless statement - people themselves are not quantities to be measured and compared;…

This definition of "rational" strangely excludes values such as reliability, endurance, initiative, charm, beauty, or leadership. But when has it ever been the case in any society for people to simply bow down to geniuses? Hasn't intelligence often taken a backseat to charm and beauty? Intelligence is but one value competing in an ecology of values.

I'm not trying to redefine rationality. I'm referring to [Rationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism), a system of values which is fundamental to the modern Western world, and trying to point out that it is inherently flawed and essentially self-contradictory exactly because its hinges on notions like "rationality" and "intelligence" but in practice anyone is free to redefine those to whatever suits the situation.

I'm not trying to put "intelligence" or "geniuses" on a pedestal, though I would argue they're already being put there by our culture's norms. If they were really so important, wouldn't people be a lot more outraged about faulty definitions and fallacious reasoning?

Instead, we get sarcastic variants of the "well, ackshyually" meme any time anyone insists that correct reasoning is a prerequisite for a meaningful conversation, and indeed colloquial language doesn't really optimize for the use case of honest, unambiguous representations of reality

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#48
post #46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’re going out into the weeds. I’m not looking for explanations or excuses. I can’t dance because I never cared to learn, not because I’m physically unable to do it. I have played sports and done other activities that require coordination. I got top score on my verbal/written SAT so orthography isn’t a problem for me either. The mistake would be saying to myself “I have Asperger’s so I can’t dance or write,”…

If you're comparing dancing to sports and orthography to written SAT, then I get the impression you might not even understand what either of things really mean. The medical literature says you're literally incapable of doing it, regardless of how hard you try. Now, that doesn't say anything about your value as person. No one cares if you're bad at writing wedding cards. In fact the sorts of people who are good at tho…

No medical literature says I or anyone else is incapable of dancing or orthography. A statistical average of autistics showing this or that impairment over a large sample says nothing about individuals. You should read the diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorders, which includes what is called Asperger’s. Here it is in case you don’t have the DSM-5 handy: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html

A person who can’t dance or isn’t comfortable talking to strangers isn’t necessarily “on the spectrum,” and a person diagnosed with ASD isn’t “literally incapable” of doing those things.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#49

I'm fairly confident that non-verbal autistic people would be extremely happy to be able to effectively communicate with other people. And I'm sure autistic children with extreme touch sensitivity would love to be able to get a haircut without being in pain. My autistic relative would be much better off of they were able to learn how to live independently as easily as everyone else can, without having to take classes…

I am autistic, my brother is too...I was raised by my self mostly (grandparents were guardians, but no rules/etc)...he had an IEP, people were aware he was "different" and it shows in his behavior now. I didn't go far in school after H.S. - but decided to learn to code and get a job programming. Paid off greatly.

My brother finished a degree in college, and lives with mom, and works as a stock-boy though he has a similar degree as my career in digital design, etc.

She cut his food for him last time I saw him when I was like 22, we went out to dinner...he seemed embarrassed but just let her do it.

I left home at 22, got married at 25, had kids at 38, found out I had ADHD and Autism at 38. I presumed I might, because a lot of people with it told me I did, and I guess it makes sense in retrospect...

Sure there's a lot of more severe cases, but most people with autism, you'd really not notice they had it...I don't give a shit about Musk, I used to be a fan, but lately he's become a bit of a jerk, so not a fan-boy any longer....I couldn't say with a surety he really is one, or just wants to pretend he's part of the self-proclaimed "autists" of WSB fame as his "group".

My point: The borderlines like myself, my son, my brother... I wonder if it's better we just hide in the cracks or something and blossom on our own than be stigmatized by IEPs, "oh you poor autistic reject of society"... my son is super smart, he's a freaking sponge, he just sometimes has outbursts, quirks, raging tempers, or the world becomes "too loud"... I get that too. I still have what feel like 2-year old overwhelming tantrums that bubble up when I'm over-stimulated...

I've thrown a Wendy's Frosty at the wall in one of my previous homes because I was upset about something... (not the first time either).

I got therapy and found out ways to cope with it as an adult, we had my son in therapy and they were using a dog whistle and training him with treats like he was fucking pavlov's dog....we fired the therapists pretty dang quick.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is much more intelligent than I am. Just wondering - what exactly makes you think so?

Very long stream of very successful business decisions.

Would you characterize Donald Trump as smarter than yourself? I mean, he made it all the way to President of the United States, have you ever been President? Hell, Einstein never was President, nor was he ever a Billionaire...

Trump was smarter than Einstein apparently. (Well, Einstein was German, bad example...

They never made it to president, or billionaire status though I don't think... It could be said Trump was more "successful"...

Does success === intelligence? God, I hope not or we're doomed as a species.

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