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Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

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Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#181
post #151
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is anarcho-capitalism to you. Even though I'm a libertarian leaning, I still think we should put a tax from CO2 emissions on crypto transactions. Something in range of 300$ per tonne of CO2. So with bitcoin emissions at 0.5T per transaction, it would be somewhere around 150$ per transaction. And to cash in on bitcoin you should be required to document the whole history of bitcoin you own.

> Something in range of 300$ per tonne of CO2. Why so high, and why specifically for crypto transactions and not everything that generates CO2?

That's about the cost of removing CO2 at industrial scale today.

And yes, I'm supporter of overall carbon tax.

Preferably something like European Union Emission Trading Scheme [0] where at some point we can just ban unmitigated emissions into the atmosphere.

I have no issue with people spending as much resources on bitcoin or any other crypto as they want as long as they clean up after themselves.

Actually it should include the whole package of externalities - CO2, electronic waste pollution etc.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emission_Tradin...

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#182
post #2

I see this as market manipulation. Tesla hasn't suddenly become aware of information not available when Tesla initially announced they'd accept bitcoin as payment.

Welcome to the world of BTC. This is quite average event to be honest, the dip isn't even that big.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#183

The explanation is obviously bullshit, everybody knew the climate impact years ago. He realized his power for market manipulation for Dogecoin and he milked the cow for real this time.

"years ago" as in 2008, when the whitepaper was released. Wasting energy, but make it competitive. And the grift is simply astounding.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#184
post #3

Hope we now can start a proof of stake cycle. Peercoin is dead. What other proof of stake viable currency is there? Only when the energy impact of crypto currency is dealt with will i indulge in speculating that it can be a net good for humanicy

Proof of stake cannot be decentralized since it's permissioned by stake and not permissionless - we studied it since it first thought about in 2014. You literally cannot get stake without someone giving you permission because it's an internally already owned resource. Permission is barrier to entry of up to infinity and another word for censorship. If control is not distributed without permission to independent parties, it cannot be called decentralized nor censorship resistant.

There is no alternative to proof of work because that uses an EXTERNAL permissionless resource available all over the universe for a reason. And it does it in a matter that's provable via a concept known as unforgeable costliness.

Not only is mining permissionless, it's costly to everyone. At equilibrium the mining costs force miners to sell virtually all coins and depend on the markets for recovering those sunk costs just to break even. That means miners are literally forced to give up control to the markets and makes the coins equally accessible without permission via mining or buying on markets forced through unforgeable costliness. The markets, and coin owners, get to price incentives that pay miners on every possible version of the chain preventing many issues including miner collusion that could render sunk costs unrecoverable.

Proof of stake is opposite - it literally forces a permission be given by every token put up for sale, something they never have to do. Staking rewards literally incentivize opposite of distributing control to others by giving you rewards in form of more coins and more control without any additional costs forever.

Proof of work is the most efficient way, the only known way, and the best known way to decentralize control. And it uses far less energy than entire countries regularly use to secure their currency, all in adversarial environment.

The biggest challenge for real decentralized cryptocurrencies is lack of education and enormous incentives to deceive and miseducate everyone for profit. This is why there's so much money these days spent marketing scams that pretend to be cryptocurrencies but are centrally premined (literally skipped permissionless mining for majority for permissioned centrally pre-mined coins) or trivially printed authority token designs like proof of stake all completely permissioned.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#185
post #161
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would he benefit? There are no put-options in Bitcoin land.

Of course there are: https://www.deribit.com/main#/options?tab=BTC-28MAY21

Interesting. Any signs of a single party buying lots of them just before the announcement?

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#186
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because this makes it seem like they are not making the right decisions because they are right , but only because doing the wrong thing made them unpopular. It makes you wonder what other wrong things they do that doesn't elicit enough of a popular response to make them reconsider. It's not like the environmental impact of Bitcoin was a subtle or obscure issue when they first made the decision. They should have k…

Is it bad to not want to do something only because public opinion says not to? I think if you think it is bad, then that implies a certain world view about absolute good and evil. The implication is that this is an evil thing, and only an evil person would want to do it, and so if the only reason they won’t do it is because of public opinion then that doesn’t change their inherent evilness. But the other possibility…

In terms of the discussion about it being a neutral thing, some points:

1. Elon Musk is afraid of AI for the reasons of the paperclip apocalypse problem. You would make something and it would consume all of the resource due to it understanding its need to self replicate and not the fact that its use of resources meant a lack of resources for everyone else and potentially the destruction of the society consuming the paperclips.

2. Elon Musk makes the worlds most famous line of environmentally friendly cars. It is believed he does this, or at least he attempts to sell them on the basis of, being environmentally friendly and saving the planet.

3. Elon Musk also then invests hugely in a decentralised currency that, by design, if it becomes popular, will use all available resources at the exclusion of any other ideology, due to it's decentralised design - including saving the climate, etc - so because energy production by and large destroys the climate, it will destroy the climate.

You can say this is a neutral choice, but mostly it just seems like a really dumb or contradictory choice. He (Elon) may well believe decentralised currencies are the future - he has also stated that as soon as a rampant unchecked production mechanism gets free, we are doomed. The apparent inability to connect the two is what I find so striking.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to destroy the environment to maintain a database. There's other ways to achieve censorship resistance than waste. Blockchains are are all social consensus anyway.

"Do you want to develop my new cryptocurrency?" is the new "Do you want to develop an app?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVy0JWX5XEY&ab_channel=Adult... Edit: [You spoiled the joke by retroactively editing your post and removing your amusing disclaimer that you had a financial stake in shilling POS, and your hilarious call for programmers to help you develop your new cryptocurrency! "Dodge, dodge." That's what mak…

I see your joke and raise you one joke https://paywithexposure.com/ Also, you should actually watch the interview on the page you just linked. It's amazing.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polkadot / Kusama (by the original CTO of Ethereum Dr. Gavin Wood) Nice recent interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAa1vKyVR5M

Polkadot/Kusama are amazing projects, but not designed to be used primarily as p2p currencies. As much as I have some issues / doubts with Cardano, I still think it's the most viable PoS cryptocurrency for mass adoption right now. ETH2 maybe also, whenever the transition actually happens.

except the fact they are literally centrally premined scams and not permissionless since you can't get stake without someone choosing for literally no forced reason to give you access

there's a reason ethereum has always been considered a scam by every developer in the space that wasn't a premine scammer

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you want to develop my new cryptocurrency?" is the new "Do you want to develop an app?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVy0JWX5XEY&ab_channel=Adult... Edit: [You spoiled the joke by retroactively editing your post and removing your amusing disclaimer that you had a financial stake in shilling POS, and your hilarious call for programmers to help you develop your new cryptocurrency! "Dodge, dodge." That's what mak…

I see your joke and raise you one joke https://paywithexposure.com/ Also, you should actually watch the interview on the page you just linked. It's amazing.

Not a joke:

Confronting Richard Heart of HEX - SPAM KING and Crypto Scammer

https://www.cointelligence.com/content/confronting-richard-h...

So will you again confirm what the article claims you already confirmed?

>Richard Heart was sued for spamming in 2002 under WA state law. Source: https://www.zdnet.com/article/peacefire-org-beats-spammers-i...

>During the interview at ANON, Richard confirmed that he was one of the first people in the world to be sued for online spam, back in 2002. This shows us Richard has experience abusing unregulated markets, as he is doing with crypto these days.

Is this an accurate quote of your own words?

>When I pressed the matter and asked for a simple “yes” or “no” as to whether he, as the FOUNDER of HEX, knows who benefits from the funds sent to the “Origin Address” he flat-out said “I’m dodging your question.” Dodging the question! He proceeds to repeat “Dodge, dodge.”

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#190
post #95

What I don't get is, why people are talking about environmental impact per transaction. Transactions or not, the computers are churning constantly to solve the useless function that would produce the hash with the most 0s in it. It really doesn't have anything to do with transactions(the fees are only a fraction of the profits). The energy impact would be precisely correlated to the fiat price since the miners will b…

isn't it the case that multiple miners (or pools) compete for the same block and only 1 wins, the rest just waste work?

That's exactly the case but on average the total mined coins must be distributed proportionally to the miners workload since the possibility to strike a block is correlated with the hash-rate which is correlated with energy consumption. They also do pooling to ease the distribution.
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