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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

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Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#261
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a significant part of the problem that has prompted the question. It would be really helpful to have some insight into what is driving the move back to the office from people on HN.

HR proudly proclaims, "we work best when we're all together"

So they agree we should wfh?

I'm kinda being facetious, but everyone is a couple of clicks away at the moment; whilst when we were in the office and video chat wasn't normalised then it would be a case of 'walk for a few minutes, find a meeting room (due to open plan offices) then chat and then a couple more minutes walking back to your own desk space' for lots of daily interactions.

I prefer the later (in a large part for the exercise, change of scenery, chance for incidental meeting of people in the corridors, etc.), but the former seems like we're more together in some ways.

I guess if anyone is wfh then we're "closer" if everyone is wfh (or behaving as if they were).

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#262
How's lots of comments here describe returning to office as a "bad deal"? WFH was a forced move due to the pandemic. Now life is getting back to normal, vaccines are generally available, and office work is coming back. So it is not a bad deal, it's just returning to initial deal, after force majeure is over.

It is true that lots of companies are embracing wfh or hybrid model right now, so if in TS shoes I would just changed the job and called it a day.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like you've thought about this quite a bit — what would the reasoning be? I have not, no, this is just guesswork, but the reasoning is how much of an unknown quantity the covid risk still is. If Bob's doctor says it's not safe for Bob to return to the office because Bob's wife had a pulmonary embolism two years ago, who's to say the doctor is wrong? If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way h…

> If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way he can work safely is from his couch, how can you argue that allowing him to wfh isn't a "reasonable accommodation", after he's done it for a year and gotten a good annual review? I'm no expert, but I'm reasonably sure you can't get 'reasonable accommodations' of much substance for a secret medical condition.

What's "reasonable" depends on cost. Suppose I have concerns about eye strain. Is it reasonable for me to demand that my employer install skylights? Probably not. Is it reasonable for me to demand a brighter desk lamp for my cube? Probably so. And when the cost is negligible, I don't think I should need a doctor's note; "I want a brighter lamp for health reasons" ought to be enough, even if my concerns are based on nothing more than a Facebook post I read.

The crux of the issue, then, is whether the cost to OP's employer to allow OP to wfh is negligible or not. And I am assuming OP's position would be that their performance last year proves the cost is negligible, not that they demand an accommodation despite the cost.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot. Yes, so, present the initiative not just or even primarily in terms of your own preferences, but in terms that highlight the benefits to your employer. How would working remotely make your contribution more valuable…

> How would working remotely make your contribution more valuable and more flexible to your team and your org? You're suggesting negotiating with a hard sell, but the benefit should already be obvious to a good employer: your employee is asking for this, because they deeply want it, and it's essentially no problem to give it to them. Making the effort to ask is already a hard sell. An employer saying 'no' thinks they…

> You're suggesting negotiating with a hard sell, but the benefit should already be obvious to a good employer

In a theoretical world, everything would be obvious to everyone. The real world is not like that, because different people see things differently, because they have different vantage points, different interests, and different constraints. Most importantly, they have different pre-conceptions, because they have different experiences.

Selling a proposition that makes sense to both parties is not about exerting will over someone. It's the opposite. It's about searching for ways to do things differently that results in mutual benefit.

Traditionally, employers in all industries have conceived of their role as commanding and monitoring employees to ensure they do work, which, they tacitly assume the employee wants to shirk. It is the role of an enforcer, and it is based on a simplistic paradigm that's now officially out of date.

In 2021, the pandemic has shed new light on that relationship.

With no choice but to work from home, and with new tools such as Zoom and Teams, workplaces in all industries have found new ways to do things, and changed their conceptions about what works and what doesn't work.

The first thing people noticed is that some people are more productive working from home, and experience greater satisfaction. They are able to balance their roles as homemakers, family members, employees and change agents better because they can slice time more effectively.

They regain all the hours lost to commuting.

They gain some of the hours lost to unnecessary interruptions from colleagues.

For responsible employees who don't shirk work, the reasons for productivity gain aren't difficult to explain. What percentage of employees is that? It was already more than 0, and it's only growing higher with better tools and more knowledge of remote work experiences.

The next thing organisations learned is that not all employees had the same experiences. Introverts welcomed the isolation. Extroverts felt diminished in the absence of the energy they gained from interactions with colleagues.

The longer the pandemic went on, the more we learned. Institutional learning is still occurring because it takes at least a year for some metrics to even be accumulated and derived. The impact on the bottom line of the change in real estate requirement e.g. CBD towers will be profound, but it hasn't even been calculated yet, let alone analysed by accountants and executives.

What ftf meetings are necessary, and what meetings, virtual and ftf, are a waste of time? We started to learn that only when ftf meetings were impossible for an extended period.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#265
post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

Don't negotiate. Dictate. If you're already in place and have proven that you're good at what you do, this is the way to go. "I wanted to let you know that I'll be staying remote from here on out. This last year has been a huge improvement in quality of life for me, and honestly I couldn't imagine working out of an office again. I'd love to stay with you guys (this is a great team), so let me know if that's an option…

> "I wanted to let you know that I'll be staying remote from here on out. This last year has been a huge improvement in quality of life for me, and honestly I couldn't imagine working out of an office again. I'd love to stay with you guys (this is a great team), so let me know if that's an option. If not, I'm sure I can wind down my projects by next month."

I'd leave out the last sentence, it doesn't add anything and just makes the threat to quit more in your face thus confrontational.

Also instead of finishing with "so let me know if that's an option." I'd go more like "so let me know what options we can explore to make this happen." The first one is a take it or leave it, the second says you're flexible on details as long as you get to be remote.

The point is that you communicate that you are very interested in staying, love the team and willing to work with management to find any reasonable solution to make this work. If you make it an ultimatum the more likely response is "Sad to see you go, ok bye."

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would working remotely make your contribution more valuable and more flexible to your team and your org? You're suggesting negotiating with a hard sell, but the benefit should already be obvious to a good employer: your employee is asking for this, because they deeply want it, and it's essentially no problem to give it to them. Making the effort to ask is already a hard sell. An employer saying 'no' thinks they…

> You're suggesting negotiating with a hard sell, but the benefit should already be obvious to a good employer In a theoretical world, everything would be obvious to everyone. The real world is not like that, because different people see things differently, because they have different vantage points, different interests, and different constraints. Most importantly, they have different pre-conceptions, because they ha…

> The real world is not like that, because different people see things differently, because they have different vantage points, different interests, and different constraints.

Sure - but this doesn't change what I said.

You're saying that an employee is obligated to sell this (what they are currently already doing for employment) to their employer. But... the employer has already proven that they value this work, paid at that rate.

Surely, instead, the employer ought to sell coming back to the office to the employee. The employer can't depend on this being the default any more.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're suggesting negotiating with a hard sell, but the benefit should already be obvious to a good employer In a theoretical world, everything would be obvious to everyone. The real world is not like that, because different people see things differently, because they have different vantage points, different interests, and different constraints. Most importantly, they have different pre-conceptions, because they ha…

> The real world is not like that, because different people see things differently, because they have different vantage points, different interests, and different constraints. Sure - but this doesn't change what I said. You're saying that an employee is obligated to sell this (what they are currently already doing for employment) to their employer. But... the employer has already proven that they value this work, pai…

> Surely, instead, the employer has to sell coming back to the office to you. The employer can't depend on this being the default any more.

I think you're right. It's just a matter of how long it takes for the change to filter through to different industries and different levels of management.

How long does change take?

It depends on the org. Small businesses see the impact straight away. Their capacity to react appropriately depends on their resources. No small company could have developed their own effective videoconferencing tools, but any small company could adopt the technology once it existed in 2020, and many did. Many failed. It depends on industry category, and individuals.

For large orgs, it's difficult to see anything clearly in under 2 years, because the metrics have to be accumulated from regions, deciphered by the accounts department (using out of date filters), and then interpreted by the C suite (using out of date compensation metrics).

The fact that different individuals respond differently to workplace changes makes it even more convoluted to sort out the gains from the costs in this situation, and reconfigure executive information systems and management practices.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way he can work safely is from his couch, how can you argue that allowing him to wfh isn't a "reasonable accommodation", after he's done it for a year and gotten a good annual review? I'm no expert, but I'm reasonably sure you can't get 'reasonable accommodations' of much substance for a secret medical condition.

What's "reasonable" depends on cost. Suppose I have concerns about eye strain. Is it reasonable for me to demand that my employer install skylights? Probably not. Is it reasonable for me to demand a brighter desk lamp for my cube? Probably so. And when the cost is negligible, I don't think I should need a doctor's note; "I want a brighter lamp for health reasons" ought to be enough, even if my concerns are based on n…

I believe the framework of "reasonable accommodation" only applies in the context of employees with disabilities. I'll again say that I'm not an employment lawyer, but I do work in the accessibility world and have only heard "reasonable accommodations" discussed in regard to the ADA.

There may be some broader context where this framework also applies, but absent that there wouldn't be a 'hook' to get it to apply to COVID-related WFH.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never take counteroffers and make it clear at every job that I don't take them because in my view if they could have paid me more but didn't, they were stealing from me. If I presented a case for a raise and didn't get it, they were also lying to me about the inability to give me one. Why hang around at a company like that? If I'm valuable to the company, it's foolish try to save a few dollars because it'll just en…

“Stealing” from you is a very confrontational view of the situation. In any negotiated situation, both sides can usually give a bit more until they reach their limit. Maybe the employee could offer an extra few hours of focussed work and the employer can offer an extra 5% salary. That’s where the negotiation lands. That can flex on either side as leverage and options move, but it’s just business. The alternative is t…

Stealing might be extreme, but it's certainly disrespectful.

* They can pay you more

* They know you're worth more than what they're paying

* They know you want to be paid more

* They won't pay you more until you make it as inconvenient as possible for them

Businesses are comprised of individuals working together. "Just business" is a convenient excuse to be a jerk.

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