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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

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Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#241

Post by teachingassist »

wombatmobile wrote: post #169
perl4ever wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Being on the spectrum I don't think that is why you made a suboptimal choice; I think that's why you incorrectly think you made a suboptimal choice. They might regret losing you, but that doesn't mean that good things would have happened if you tried to apply leverage before. The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally woun…

> The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot. Yes, so, present the initiative not just or even primarily in terms of your own preferences, but in terms that highlight the benefits to your employer. How would working remotely make your contribution more valuable…

> How would working remotely make your contribution more valuable and more flexible to your team and your org?

You're suggesting negotiating with a hard sell, but the benefit should already be obvious to a good employer: your employee is asking for this, because they deeply want it, and it's essentially no problem to give it to them. Making the effort to ask is already a hard sell.

An employer saying 'no' thinks they have the power in this situation, and is choosing to express that power over an issue which primarily affects their employee's happiness.

Hard sell or not, it's time to quit.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#242

Post by throwaway0a5e »

jagger27 wrote: post #127
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the kind of people I'd have to live amongst if I lived near the jobs 20 days is a small price to pay for freedom and sanity.

What “kind of people”?

Thank you for asking. It seems like everyone is assuming I meant I don't want to live among people of a certain complexion, nationality, economic status or perhaps some other criteria like that.

The people I don't want to live among are the kind that have a lot of money and not a lot of problems.

I get along better with street pharmacists than I do with doctors and lawyers.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#243

Post by tsukikage »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #66
throw14082020 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, people talk about mindset, and this is it. You should be prepared to walk away from a bad deal: going back into the office. However, don't reveal things like "youre willing to compromise on salary to work from home". I've made a lot of concessions when I really want something, and thinking back, I didn't need to in many cases. In fact, ask for a raise in the same conversation. Be mentally prepared to ask…

Never offer to be paid less for X. Even a shorter work week. Let them say you get paid less first (they may not) and then counter. I’m mainly writing this comment for me later on :-) It’s simply the case not everyone wants to screw you down on cost. Don’t assume they will. If you have every purchased a Mac when a pc is cheaper (or similar buying the brand when generic is cheaper) or paid more for the pizza from the r…

I mean, to be clear, I'm not intending to explicitly offer to be paid less, but the reality is that jobs in my town pay rather less than jobs in the capital, and so if my fallback position is to quit my job in the capital for a job in the science park across the road, I need to privately plan for a pay cut.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#244

Post by adamhp »

lmilcin wrote: post #240
account42 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can dictate that you will be working from home even if your current employer still has the choice that you will not be working for them.

Again, you are not dictating if it is up to them to decide whether they accept it or not. I am not native English speaker, but the dictionaries are rather precise that authority is a necessary ingredient of being able to dictate something. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dictate "to give orders, or tell someone exactly what they must do, with total authority" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio…

>I am not native English speaker

There is a bit of nuance here. As someone else mentioned, he is not saying he is literally dictating what decision the employer must make, he is dictating his own terms.

In fact, you conveniently left out a definition that doesn't fit your argument from the pages you linked:

> to influence something or make it necessary

Example (from the Cambridge URL that you linked): "He shouldn't be allowed to dictate all the terms and conditions - it's supposed to be a democratic decision."

That's exactly what OP is doing. Dictating the terms and conditions. Influencing what "must be done". Giving them an ultimatum, by dictating his conditions. He is "dictating" in this case, because he does have total authority on his own actions. If they do not cede, he will leave.

It's kind of a semantic argument, and moot at that, but even the resources you linked support OP's usage of the word dictate.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#246

Post by UncleMeat »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #141
agogdog wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore I've been in this position a couple times with pay raises... and to be honest once this happens the job is more or less dead for me anyway. To only pay me what I asked because I'm leaving absolutely obliterates my trust.

I never take counteroffers and make it clear at every job that I don't take them because in my view if they could have paid me more but didn't, they were stealing from me. If I presented a case for a raise and didn't get it, they were also lying to me about the inability to give me one. Why hang around at a company like that? If I'm valuable to the company, it's foolish try to save a few dollars because it'll just en…

Why not ask for double, triple, or 100x your salary? Your employer will probably not go under. Are they stealing this hypothetical money from you?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#247

Post by cannabis_sam »

pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

> Don't negotiate. Dictate.

I completely agree, but for most people it requires them to have something to fall back on. Which can be extremely hard to establish in our current economic climate, since it prioritizes businesses over people.

The logical position is to treat your (and every) employer as an aggressively exploitative entity, that wouldn’t hesitate for a microsecond to cut you loose.

Build contacts, develop your network, plan your career, and most importantly, actually work consciously towards having absolutely no loyalty, empathy or compassion for any employer... that will still be a more generous position than how any employer will view you (unless they are actively breaching their fiduciary duties).

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#248

Post by zamalek »

pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

> found another job that does 100% remote

Absolutely this. The market for talent is going to be incredibly hot in the coming months. You should have no problems finding remote work.

Every situation is different, but I wouldn't use it as an ultimatum. If you see cockroaches in the kitchen, then there's probably rats. If your leadership doesn't have the maturity to look past their dogma and continue a successful experiment, what other bad decisions are they making at your expense?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#249

Post by luch »

lmilcin wrote: post #184
pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

> Don't negotiate. Dictate. Everything is a negotiation. You have only limited power over your employer. If you think you can "dictate", you don't understand the relationship you have. If what you think "dictating" works, that is because it really is a negotiation and your employer decided they will meet your demands. "Dictating" may get you a label attached, that you are hard to negotiate with, fussy, capricious, et…

faking being irrational about your position unfortunately may be quite successful when negotiating against a rational actor : https://www.ismanundpartner.com/blog/irrational-negotiator

However, I'm not sure it is the way to go for employment contracts where you have an ongoing relationship with the other party.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#250

Post by oftenwrong »

hparadiz wrote: post #106
jeromegv wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you literally picked the shortest one which isn't much better, the average commute is 53min per day in the US.

My commute on the east coast when I lived there was 15 minutes and I still hated it cause I had to actually get showered, dressed, and look presentable and then actually get on my bike and weave through some aggressive traffic to get there. It was only two miles but I'd still rather not do it at all. And in the winter... It's just torture on the body.

Good point: The measurements of commuting time should include all preparation. Dressing, preparing lunch, ironing, etc.
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