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Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

nature.com

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Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#251

Post by danparsonson »

miked85 wrote: post #239
danparsonson wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, I haven't had COVID, but other people having it has certainly ruined my year and everyone else's regardless. There's a lot more at stake than just your personal health.

Agreed, but what do you propose? We will never have 100% of people get the vaccine due to either personal choice or medical conditions.

>> But their choices affect me

>If you and your family get vaccinated, how do their choices affect you?

I was simply answering this.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#252

Post by bart_spoon »

defaultname wrote: post #211
raducu wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the fact that those two mutations pop up in Brazil, South Africa and now India a good thing? That could mean it's likely the virus is running out of useful mutations?

I assumed that the common mutations were the result of travel. Is that not the case? Is the belief that the virus is hitting the same mutations independently in multiple places?

While its possible some of it is due to travel, I've definitely read that there is plenty of reason to believe these mutations are arising independently in different nations. Basically the virus is mutating all the time, but the vast majority of mutations are meaningless or have negative impact on the fitness of the virus. However some mutations may be more commonly observed, either because certain mutations in particular regions are more common (due to the physics/chemistry of the proteins involved) or because the mutation changes the virus in a way that makes it more like to stick and ultimately spread among the population. Some of these mutations are basically like local minimums in a mathematical function, and its not uncommon to see random traversals of that function coalesce around these minimums, at least temporarily.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#253

Post by loceng »

lamontcg wrote: post #61
vmception wrote: post #33

I literally saw the opposite headline about Pzifer versus a strain in India today The actual article said "modest antibody evading capabilities“ I hate that the internet has become this way

"modest antibody evading capabilities“ This generally means that a pseudovirus built with the mutated spike escapes some monoclonal antibodies and has reduced neutralization titers against convalescent sera, which is fairly normal and doesn't add up to an escape mutation. When it mutates enough to form an actual escape mutation that will probably come at a cost to the virus for transmissibility/virulence/viral load b…

It sounds like you might be a good person to review and give your thoughts on this interview between Bret Weinstein, an evolutionary biologist, and Geert Vanden Bossche, a virologist, who discuss this in length and detail it for layperson? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyAovuUxro

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#254

Post by andred14 »

vmception wrote: post #33

I literally saw the opposite headline about Pzifer versus a strain in India today The actual article said "modest antibody evading capabilities“ I hate that the internet has become this way

By this way fo you mean full of corporations that lie to us?

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#255

Post by bart_spoon »

vmception wrote: post #33

I literally saw the opposite headline about Pzifer versus a strain in India today The actual article said "modest antibody evading capabilities“ I hate that the internet has become this way

Usually its because they aren't always talking about the exact same thing. So far at least, whenever you see a headline about a strain "evading antibody capabilities", it means that they've found that the strain induces a lower reading on various measures of immunity in sera, like neutralizing titers, than previous strains do.

However, a measure of immunity like neutralizing titers isn't a 1:1 function of immunity.

So a simple example (with made up numbers) would be that a particular strain sees a 6x reduction in neutralizing titers compared to the original strain, but it doesn't mean much because there are enough neutralizing titers provided by the vaccine that even a 15x fold reduction would provide strong protection. In this case you could say that the strain has modest antibody evading capabilities AND that the vaccine provides strong protection against it.

I think most media outlets tend to overemphasize the "evasion" angle in headlines, either due to incompetence or for clickbait purposes. Given that almost every single one I've read has a quote from a physician along the lines of "This isn't anything to worry about, it still provides protection" buried a few paragraphs down, I'm assuming its the latter.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#256

Post by Pyramus »

yonaguska wrote: post #240
Pyramus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. If you are talking about pre-existing immunity from prior infection, the benefit may be less, and in fact it is recommended not to vaccinate within 6 months of infection. If you are talking about innate immunity or cross-immunity from SARS-Cov-1 it's super rare and hasn't been shown to be relevant in most Western countries. To see the (reduced) benefit even with prior infection just look at the numerous r…

> it is recommended not to vaccinate within 6 months of infection. 24/7 ads and encouragement for people to get the vaccine, almost to the point that it's a moral virtue means that tons of people are getting the vaccine, even having recently caught covid-19.

You can't get the vaccine without anamnesis/checking your medical history, and one item is prior infection.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#257

Post by bart_spoon »

reedjosh wrote: post #94
garmaine wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to your local hospital and see for yourself how deadly the disease is.

I can't just walk in. That said I know several people that have had it. Some elderly with existing conditions. Worst case was my aunt who got pneumonia from it. She's in her mid sixties and diabetic. She was in the hospital for a week. Was in the emergency room with my son a few months back, not overflowing or anything, but I wasn't there to track Covid cases.

Well I've had two family members die from it and another on death's door in the hospital and now is losing her hair months after recovery, so anecdotes can go both ways.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#258

Post by halfjoking »

vmception wrote: post #42
sigmaprimus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, unfortunately there have been so many half truths and misleading articles both online and on legacy media that I find myself not knowing what or who to trust anymore. I have an appointment to get my first jab in 43 hours from now and I am bouncing back and forth between getting it and cancelation. Five years ago I would not be having these doubts but it seems like everyone has alterior motives. I wish the so…

If you already have an appointment the only debate should be whether you will need an additional third booster shot in the future if the strain in India breaks out and is different enough. The key thing you should notice about the COVID vaccine detractors is their inability to distinguish between vaccines and the wildly different technology between the different vaccines, alongside their inability acknowledge the geo…

So why is there no traditional vaccine? I trust Sinovac. It's inactive virus vaccine, and they ship raw materials[1] to other countries and say "build it yourself" at manufacturers that have no connection to the Chinese government.

Bill Gates on the other hand says these vaccines are too complex and that safety and security issues[2] make it impossible for anyone else to produce these vaccines.

The media keep saying "even mRNA vaccines that are new don't enter the nucleus or alter DNA." Guess which could do that? The viral vector vaccines that have custom DNA run in the nucleus, which then produces the mRNA. This MedCram video[3] explains it better than me. Everything around the messaging for vaccines in mainstream media is so misleading if you look at the science. I don't know how someone couldn't be at least a little suspicious.

I have longcovid btw, I'm not getting the shot. People repeat BS to me like the vaccines will cure longcovid. They offer no proof whatsoever, no plausible method of action, and go off the media narrative how it "could help some people." I'm on longcovid forums, I trust the anecdotal experiences there than anything in the media.

[1] https://en.tempo.co/read/1445856/16-million-sinovac-vaccines... [2] https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/bill-gates-b... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13qT7wLxkvU#t=1m30s

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#259

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

aeyes wrote: post #245
cetiniz wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be easier believing you if you didn't spend all your time on this site defending China...

Just have a look at the (non China) data from a real world Sinovac vaccination campaign yourself: https://www.minsal.cl/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Effectivene... I see 67% effectiveness of preventing symptomatic cases for Sinovac. I'm not sure where the 80% comes from, they could be talking about AstraZeneca.

The Seychelles has been using a Sinopharm vaccine, not the Sinovac one. They're similar vaccines, but there could be slight differences. The WHO just approved a Sinopharm vaccine (called "BIBP"), and has stated,[1]

> A large multi-country Phase 3 trial has shown that 2 doses, administered at an interval of 21 days, have an efficacy of 79% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection 14 or more days after the second dose.

There are two different Sinopharm vaccines, but I think that BIBP is the one being used in the Seychelles. And yes, as you note, the Phase III studies were conducted outside of China. In order to conduct a Phase III study, there has to be community transmission of the virus, meaning that Phase III trials are impossible in China right now. You would get the same result for the vaccine and placebo arms of the trial: no infections.

1. https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-sin...

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#260

Post by mywittyname »

dnautics wrote: post #60
cycrutchfield wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have an appointment to get my first jab in 43 hours from now and I am bouncing back and forth between getting it and cancelation. Sorry, what is the downside to getting the vaccine in your mind?

I advocate getting vaccinated (I am myself) but if people don't want to put foreign substances into their bodies, we should respect their choices, especially since the long-term risk profile is unknown (we are pretty sure it's safe, but who can know?)

Cars and certain power plants dump toxic chemicals into the air and occasionally the water supply. Society doesn't give anyone the option to opt out of putting these known toxins in their bodies because we can't. Society either has electricity & cars, thus poisons everyone, or it doesn't. The best we can do is work to mitigate the negative impacts.

We are at the the point where society needs people to receive a vaccine, or it will stop functioning. How much are you willing to personally sacrifice so that someone near you has the option to avoid getting a couple of shots that a billion other people have already received?

Factories can't run at full capacity until people are vaccinated. Our food supplies, specifically meat, are at risk until people are vaccinated. We are going to keep this society of scarcity until ~90% of people are willing to get two shots.

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