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Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

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Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#111

Post by masklinn »

arecibodrake wrote: post #66
Apocryphon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a clever, ironic use of blaming the government- in the U.S., big government is always seen as an impediment and to be dreaded, but the problem is not for meddling bureaucrats, but hands-off ones who allow corporations free rein.

You mean the governments that constrain through force the market so that only a few monopolistic entities are present?

You don't need government to do anything to end up with monopolies, especially in activities with very high cost-of-entry such as utilities or telecommunications.

Ma Bell became a natural monopoly all on its own, and barring an extremely disruptive entry into the market (which is, again, extremely difficult in high-entry-cost markets since the rate of new entry is so low) it will consolidate over time as the current incumbents reach the limits of possible organic growth.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#112

Post by anamax »

w1ntermute wrote: post #44
masklinn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, if I'm not mistaken, most of the phone companies were and are at least somewhat private entities that invested private money in putting in the lines Most of the phone companies were Ma Bell, which had a government-sanctioned natural monopoly from 1936 to its breakup in 1984.

> Most of the phone companies were Ma Bell, which had a government-sanctioned natural monopoly from 1936 to its breakup in 1984. If it was natural, why was a government sanction necessary?

> If it was natural, why was a government sanction necessary?

Govt likes monopolies and companies like to have govt keep out competition, which is what the govt did for AT&T.

Interestingly enough, AT&T had been a govt monopoly well before 1936 and then lost that and regained it again in 1936.

AT&T loved being a monopoly.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#113

Post by nitrogen »

naner wrote: post #106

An issue that appears to be overlooked is that the US is much less densely populated and has a much higher overall population and land area to cover. I favor the way many European countries are able to handle things like this (and healthcare, and transportation, etc) but the US is hardly similar to any of those countries. We're operating at a completely different scale here. Not to mention political and cultural diff…

The potency of the population density argument is seriously diminished by the fact that rural municipal broadband initiatives frequently provide much higher performance than available commercial offerings.

Blaming the government is reasonable. Before the FCC shut it down, I had a 6mbit up/160kbit down wireless cable modem from Sprint Broadband Direct in a rural area in 2000, connecting to a tower 30 miles away.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#114

Post by hammock »

Apocryphon wrote: post #53
theBobMcCormick wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It blows my mind that anyone in the startup community would automatically assume taxes = bad. Startups benefit immensely from tax funded services. As an example, you can complain all you want about specific laws and their enforcement,but nothing remotely resembling Silicon Valley could exist without the stable legal environment provided by the tax payer funded court system and law enforcement system. Not to mention t…

Also, having an environment where taxes are the norm gives people incentives to pursue new endeavors that lead to tax write-offs!

Without a doubt, just like rampant window breaking incents people to build houses with less windows. Is that a good thing?

Bob, no one was talking about fire dept or highways... where did that come from?

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#115

Post by anghyflawn »

naner wrote: post #106

An issue that appears to be overlooked is that the US is much less densely populated and has a much higher overall population and land area to cover. I favor the way many European countries are able to handle things like this (and healthcare, and transportation, etc) but the US is hardly similar to any of those countries. We're operating at a completely different scale here. Not to mention political and cultural diff…

What do you think is the population density of Sweden, Norway, or Finland? There is still very decent broadband to be had up here at 70 degrees northern latitude.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#116

Post by arethuza »

daleharvey wrote: post #104
tzs wrote: post #43

In the "Need to Know" version of this story they talked with a BT representative about how things had worked out for BT after they were forced into local loop unbundling. It worked out great for BT. They make more money leasing out the lines and leasing out space in their switching centers for the third party ISP's equipment than they were making providing monopoly ISP services directly. It truly is a case of everyon…

It isnt truly a case of everyone wins, consumers still need to pay ridiculous reconnection fees (these are typically £100 - £300, despite the fact there was an active line before you moved in) As well as being forced to pay line rental (£8-£15pm) for a bt phone line despite no intention of ever making any calls. BT definitely won out of it, not sure anyone else did.

On the subject of connection fees:

"If a connection charge applies most people find they don't need to pay this it costs £30 if you're just taking a BT line or free with any broadband package."

From:

http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displ...

I'm pretty sure we didn't pay anything when we moved a while back.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#117

Post by Apocryphon »

hammock wrote: post #114
Apocryphon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, having an environment where taxes are the norm gives people incentives to pursue new endeavors that lead to tax write-offs!

Without a doubt, just like rampant window breaking incents people to build houses with less windows. Is that a good thing? Bob, no one was talking about fire dept or highways... where did that come from?

Rampant window breaking incentivizes people towards inventing new and more innovative ways to create shatterproof windows. Still a win!

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#118

Post by lionhearted »

russell wrote: post #58
logjam wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... after creating monopolies in the first place If you are really trying to advance the theory that "the market", left to itself, won't generate monopoly after monopoly, perhaps you could point us to actual examples of those golden times when the absence of regulation served consumers more than they served business oligarchy.

Are you trying to say that unregulated monopolies like US Steel, Standard Oil, the railroads, AT&T, American Tobacco didnt have the best interests of the public in mind? After all Carnegie gave us lots of libraries and without Rockefeller we would not have had the Rockettes.

I can't comment on the other three, but Standard Oil was fantastically good for the United States and the world. I'd really recommend the biography "Titan" by Ron Chernow about John Rockefeller's life.

Tons of advances in efficiency, chemistry, operations, logistics. Oil prices fell dramatically, consistency and quality went up, supply went up through all of Standard's monopoly years. Breaking it up was far more about political factional conflict than it was about problems for consumers.

(Preemptively: Before anyone decides to jump on it, Rockefeller's rebate deal with the railroad wasn't above board. But Standard Oil was a huge net gain for the world. Absurdly so, actually.)

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#119

Post by TamDenholm »

daleharvey wrote: post #104
tzs wrote: post #43

In the "Need to Know" version of this story they talked with a BT representative about how things had worked out for BT after they were forced into local loop unbundling. It worked out great for BT. They make more money leasing out the lines and leasing out space in their switching centers for the third party ISP's equipment than they were making providing monopoly ISP services directly. It truly is a case of everyon…

It isnt truly a case of everyone wins, consumers still need to pay ridiculous reconnection fees (these are typically £100 - £300, despite the fact there was an active line before you moved in) As well as being forced to pay line rental (£8-£15pm) for a bt phone line despite no intention of ever making any calls. BT definitely won out of it, not sure anyone else did.

Yep, i actually get charged a fee on top of my line rental because i dont make phone calls on it. I despise that i have to pay BT line rental then pay broadband from my other provider. I'd like to see 1 fee from my ISP of choice including line rental, just to make things simplier even if its the same price.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#120

Post by rmc »

chopsueyar wrote: post #81
rmc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a factor in making this easier in Europe is that all phone lines were put in by entirely government owned and operated enterprises, and it can't be argued that the public doesn't own them Depends. When Ireland privatized it's state owned teleco, it included all the wires going all over the country.

All the citizens of Ireland voted to privatize the people owned telco and all its infrastructure?

No, the government did it. Member of the public were encouraged to buy shares and invest in share trading. IIRC many lost money.
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