Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter • Hacker News Board

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#71

Post by gpm » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

Raed667 wrote: post #43

gpm wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you should just be comparing pre-tax salary converted into the same currency?

Not really, for example in France I can go and do a full-spectrum healthcare check (eyes, dental, physical, mental, name it...) and it would cost me -in total- less than 100€ nothing is deduced from my salary. One year of prestigious university is less than 600€ in fees... Cost of living, education, transportation, etc... also are a factor.

The health check is paid for out of taxes though, in the end money/goods/services aren't free.

I mean sure, France's government and health care system is probably a bit more efficient than America's, but I doubt it's order of magnitude different. Maybe more importantly, but in the other direction, as a developer in France you're probably paying more for healthcare than you use (subsidizing the average person who pays less taxes). Quite arguably differences like those are things that you are purchasing with your salary by choosing to live in the US instead of France, I don't think it's either desirable or really possible to eliminate them.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#72

Post by ashtonkem » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

ttul wrote: post #53

ashtonkem wrote: post #42

My standard advice to every graduate CS student is to stay the hell away from professional video game development. If you want to make games, turn it into a hobby instead.

I dunno. My friend is making $250K working for Roblox. He’s 15yrs into his career - all game dev. Doesn’t seem too bad.

And some college athletes will eventually end up in a Tom Brady situation, that doesn’t mean I would recommend anyone bank on getting drafted as a career.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#73

Post by o_p » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

SamuelAdams wrote: post #18

This isn't unique to game dev. This is true in education as well - most white collar positions pay between 40 - 100k while vice presidents and presidents get 250k + packages. I think more developers need to get better at negotiating. One 10 minute conversation can beat years of 2-4% raises. It's all about setting expectations and being willing to walk away.

"If you get physically bullied just become stronger" is the opposite of society

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#74

Post by hu3 » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

ttul wrote: post #53

ashtonkem wrote: post #42

My standard advice to every graduate CS student is to stay the hell away from professional video game development. If you want to make games, turn it into a hobby instead.

I dunno. My friend is making $250K working for Roblox. He’s 15yrs into his career - all game dev. Doesn’t seem too bad.

Good for him. But that's an exception.

How much does the average roblox dev make?

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#75

Post by Ekaros » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

Supply and demand. If there is more people accepting lower rates then rates will be lower. Nothing wrong with that. It's not like many of the skills aren't at least some level of transferable. So if money is an issue try to find employment outside gaming sector. Like everyone else does when balancing income and job.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#76

Post by da_chicken » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

0xy wrote: post #4

It's really weird how this article starts by showing how through negotiation and job searching you can increase your salary, but bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers (just look at teachers unions, where pay is totally disconnected from competence and performance). If you're a really good game developer, artist or animator then you should learn the skill of negotiation…

> but bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers (just look at teachers unions, where pay is totally disconnected from competence and performance).

Public sector unions are an entirely different ball of wax because negotiation power and strike power are both limited. The management for public sector jobs doesn't determine budget; neither does the amount of revenue generated by the business. It's 100% a decision of a legislature, and that decision will often have absolutely nothing to do with the quality, performance, or demands of the actual faculty, staff, administration, or schools themselves.

For example, teachers are unioned and do have generally low pay[0]. However, I could point to police officers, which are also nearly ubiquitously unioned as well and they have high salaries[1] in spite of a training program that is generally less than a year[2].

The difference? Increasing police funding always looks good for both parties (or has historically). For teachers, half the political landscape has a plank that's all about de-funding public education in favor of 100% private education.

Furthermore, there's another factor: Teachers are generally women while police officers are generally men. That means the structural gender bias in salaries is going to be higher here than in careers where the genders are more equally divided.

In short, it's much more complicated than you're making it out to be.

[0]: https://www.indeed.com/career/police-officer/salaries

[1]: https://www.indeed.com/career/teacher/salaries

[2]: https://www.insider.com/some-police-academies-require-fewer-...

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#77

Post by kube-system » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

Raed667 wrote: post #31

bluescrn wrote: post #10

The massive gap between UK and US gamedev salaries seems to keep getting larger :(

I'm struggling with this, I can't find a formula to translate US salaries to European ones (UK, FR, DE, mainly). On the one hand in the US if you save a lot, you can retire early and move somewhere cheap. On the other hand in Europe a lot of things are covered for you without having to deduct them from the salary. If anyone has researched this subject I'd love some links.

There's no good formula to convert salaries from one part of the US to another part of the US. :)

Even to do that, you need to consider:

* State and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes

* The value of the particular benefits packages at the respective jobs

* The comparative cost of living difference (housing can be up to a 10x difference)

* Insurance rate differences (which can vary widely because most insurance regulations are per-state)

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#78

Post by bluescrn » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #20

bluescrn wrote: post #10

The massive gap between UK and US gamedev salaries seems to keep getting larger :(

I don’t think it’s just games! UK software dev money is terrible, outside of contracting.

Londoners can make good money, it seems. But London isn't somewhere you want to be unless you're still in your 20s.

And in a post-Covid world, 'being in/near London' may not be able to increase your earning potential in the way it usually has done.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#79

Post by mywittyname » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #25

What is the supply of labor like like when it comes to game development? It seems like there might be a huge number of folks who want to get into the game industry, but not as many jobs available? Could that have an impact on salaries? When I changed careers and attended a coding camp, there were a handful of very capable folks who had failed to get into the gaming industry noting how many other folks like them there…

Wanting to be a game developer and being a good game developer are pretty different things. I'm sure that first shipped game to appear on your resume greatly increases the frequency and salary of offers.

Also game development requires a lot of disparate skill sets. Artists are pretty much always underpaid relative to the amount of time and effort they put into their craft. The money there is always going to be as a lead/manager.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#80

Post by ryandrake » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

SamuelAdams wrote: post #18

This isn't unique to game dev. This is true in education as well - most white collar positions pay between 40 - 100k while vice presidents and presidents get 250k + packages. I think more developers need to get better at negotiating. One 10 minute conversation can beat years of 2-4% raises. It's all about setting expectations and being willing to walk away.

You see this advice a lot, but it's never very specific. "Just negotiate better!" OK, great... how? Most of us have no leverage besides our willingness to walk away, and when the market is saturated with talent, it's usually fine for a company to just let you walk away. I bet for someone who happens to be the world's foremost expert in some niche skill the company needs, negotiating a higher comp is straightforward. For the 95+% of the rest of us, it goes kind of like this:

Candidate: I'd like $150K. Comparable companies offer people with my experience $150K.

Company: We'll offer you $100K.

Candidate: I'll walk if you give me less than $140K.

Company: Ok... Bye?

Candidate: How about a little more equity?

Company: How about no?

Candidate: OK. $130K and maybe a bigger potential bonus?

Company: We're already interviewing the next person.