Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter • Hacker News Board

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#41

Post by ralph84 » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

0xy wrote: post #4

It's really weird how this article starts by showing how through negotiation and job searching you can increase your salary, but bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers (just look at teachers unions, where pay is totally disconnected from competence and performance). If you're a really good game developer, artist or animator then you should learn the skill of negotiation…

Most of the highest paid athletes and actors are union members. Union membership doesn't have to mean everyone is paid the same. Teachers having the same pay has more to do with them being interchangeable than being union members.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#42

Post by ashtonkem » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

My standard advice to every graduate CS student is to stay the hell away from professional video game development. If you want to make games, turn it into a hobby instead.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#43

Post by Raed667 » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #36

Raed667 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling with this, I can't find a formula to translate US salaries to European ones (UK, FR, DE, mainly). On the one hand in the US if you save a lot, you can retire early and move somewhere cheap. On the other hand in Europe a lot of things are covered for you without having to deduct them from the salary. If anyone has researched this subject I'd love some links.

It seems like you should just be comparing pre-tax salary converted into the same currency?

Not really, for example in France I can go and do a full-spectrum healthcare check (eyes, dental, physical, mental, name it...) and it would cost me -in total- less than 100€ nothing is deduced from my salary.

One year of prestigious university is less than 600€ in fees...

Cost of living, education, transportation, etc... also are a factor.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#44

Post by gambiting » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #20

bluescrn wrote: post #10

The massive gap between UK and US gamedev salaries seems to keep getting larger :(

I don’t think it’s just games! UK software dev money is terrible, outside of contracting.

Correct. I've had this discussion here with someone saying if you don't make at least $150k/year(or equivalent in local currency) as a dev, leave immediately. I was like.....in UK, that would mean 90% of the programming workforce would leave tomorrow :-P to get that much as a programmer you need to either be in contracting, or few of the companies paying that much in London(but then you're paying London rent so I'm not so sure it's such a great thing). Up here in the North I make about.....let's say half that, and that's a very decent salary up here.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#45

Post by ck425 » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #37

Nursie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s just games! UK software dev money is terrible, outside of contracting.

Why in the world is software money so terrible in the UK? I always look up salaries and cost of living when traveling and the UK was one of the more surprising instances of that. It seems like the only way to live comfortably in London is in finance.

Software salaries aren't terrible in the UK, they're just not as crazy as the US. Most decent software engineers I know are comfortable in the 80th percentile of income or higher.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#46

Post by Context_free » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

0xy wrote: post #4

It's really weird how this article starts by showing how through negotiation and job searching you can increase your salary, but bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers (just look at teachers unions, where pay is totally disconnected from competence and performance). If you're a really good game developer, artist or animator then you should learn the skill of negotiation…

> bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers

I guess that's why top performing movie stars, NBA basketball players etc. have their wages depressed?

Maybe companies lowballing salaries, or being in secret, illegal cartels to drive down salaries of high earners like that lawsuit showing Eric Schmidt and Steve Jobs did, can depress wages too?

> Negotiation is an extremely important skill in life

Yes, which is why companies have scores of lawyers, HR personnel etc. to draw up IP assignment agreements etc. In fact the company has people who specialize solely on negotiating salaries. Your advice is for workers to shun working in concert with their fellow workers since they're so high performing, and walk into this phalanx arrayed against them solo. You also advise someone spending the time to become a top performer to spend their spare time becoming better negotiators, in order to get over on the team of negotiating specialists they will be facing.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#47

Post by munk-a » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

0xy wrote: post #4

It's really weird how this article starts by showing how through negotiation and job searching you can increase your salary, but bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers (just look at teachers unions, where pay is totally disconnected from competence and performance). If you're a really good game developer, artist or animator then you should learn the skill of negotiation…

Wealth inequality seems like it's a pretty serious societal problem right now so I don't really see a problem with depressing the salaries of top earners so that less skilled folks can get some more. I'd really love to see UBI but since socialism=bad we're unlikely to see that anytime soon.

I consider myself to be pretty skilled and would be happy to take a pay cut if I knew that money was mostly going to more junior folks (and not just being pocketed by corporations to be funneled into stock dividends).

Negotiation is an invaluable skill, as is a knowledge of self worth, but it's something that a lot of people have real issues with - it isn't taught in school and a lot of introverted people (this goes double for people on the autism spectrum) will have real lifetime issues developing it. I can't argue that negotiation is a large part of financial success in the modern world but it seems quite counter to how we'd like society to operate - I'd rather live in a world where wage transparency was a thing and wage advocacy could be contracted out.

IMO leaning on negotiation for compensation adjustment creates an unjust world.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#48

Post by dv_dt » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

wcarss wrote: post #13

0xy wrote: post #4

It's really weird how this article starts by showing how through negotiation and job searching you can increase your salary, but bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers (just look at teachers unions, where pay is totally disconnected from competence and performance). If you're a really good game developer, artist or animator then you should learn the skill of negotiation…

Unions can at the least increase the standard of pay for everyone other than those few top performers who also know how to negotiate well. Having to adversarially game out every interaction just to thrive in the world, especially those interactions with entities that have a lot of power to make your life good or bad for a long time, is a serious burden to place on people, and unions can help to alleviate it. I have a…

And by seriously enforcing minimums and medians, they can negotiate rules that don't impact out top performers - doubtful that SAG rules limits top actor pay for example.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#49

Post by o_p » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

0xy wrote: post #4

It's really weird how this article starts by showing how through negotiation and job searching you can increase your salary, but bizarrely then talks about unions, which are known to depress wages for top performers (just look at teachers unions, where pay is totally disconnected from competence and performance). If you're a really good game developer, artist or animator then you should learn the skill of negotiation…

>I truly do not understand why anyone stays at these game studios for 5+ years and allows themselves to be absolutely robbed blind by pitiful wages and cost-of-living raises.

Maybe thats why your advice is "just be good"

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#50

Post by bluescrn » Mon, May 10, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

darknavi wrote: post #15

bluescrn wrote: post #10

The massive gap between UK and US gamedev salaries seems to keep getting larger :(

Which direction? The article doesn't give me a good sense for how European devs are getting paid.

Vastly higher in the US (at least 2x, maybe 3x), judging from the #gamedevpaidme hashtag.

Yeah, there's cost-of-living factors involved, but gamedev in the UK (and Europe?) just pays poorly. There's certainly money being made, but it's usually buying fancy cars for studio directors, not going into rewarding the dev team.