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The XY Problem (2014)

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Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#81

Post by [deleted] »

tedunangst wrote: post #32
chowells wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…

This happens all the time, and no, not only in super exceptional special cases. Ask how to change the spark plugs on a Lotus. Nobody has a freaking clue, but their neighbor told them Lotus is unreliable, so you get half a dozen yahoos replying "you should buy a Toyota, it's more reliable." Thanks, geniuses, but I already have a reliable car, I also happen to like playing with my Lotus, which I did not purchase becaus…

[deleted]

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#82

Post by dirkt »

bhk wrote: post #74

The mentality of this author is problematic. From the perspective of someone asking for Y, I've often been a victim of this because I'm met with a slew of imagined X's -- X0, X1, X2, ... an unending list of problems, often more complicated than Y -- due to their narrow preconceptions, making the whole exercise of asking someone not worth the time. From the perspective of someone being asked for Y, yes, often I can su…

> but in order to be helpful, I try to answer Y directly and honestly, and then point out my concerns, describing my presumptions.

This works fine as long as Y actually does have a simple solution. Often it does not, and already the question for Y is really weird, but once you hear about the X you can give a quick and simple answer.

That said, sometimes X is really really complicated. But even in that case it'll help anyone you are asking if you quickly outline X in a short sentence, just so the one you are asking has enough context.

(I have been on both sides, but more often then not the simple X was missing from questions was really strange Ys. Though I also have asked for Ys (and even outlined the X) and have been annoyed by people who insist that I should do something else, and describe my X in more detail, but when I do, they can't answer either, because the X really complicated and Y actually was a valid attempt at solving it).

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#83

Post by dirkt »

coldtea wrote: post #43
chowells wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…

> There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. Well, that's strange, because what they do is still divining. They try to divine "what you actually wanted", even though you asked another…

> Well, that's strange, because what they do is still divining.

Then don't make them devine, outline your X in a short sentence.

Ignore those who still divine.

Listen to those who tell you that Y is really hard, but to solve X, you can try Y' instead.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#84

Post by dirkt »

intrepidhero wrote: post #46

To quote the TFA: After much interaction and wasted time , it finally becomes clear that the user really wants help with X, and that Y wasn't even a suitable solution for X. (emphasis mine) Whose time was wasted? For the asker, the exploration of Y and the eventual realization that it is not a good way to pursue X is a learning experience with value. For the answerer, they may feel their time is wasted if the goal is…

> Whose time was wasted?

The time spent on the interaction between asker and those who answered to actually get the asker to provide context and outline his X.

If the asker had done this right from the start, instead of making the answerers guess, then the goal to help the asker deepen their understanding can be reached much more quickly.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#85

Post by tinkertamper »

Had a Product Manager who would always ask for Y, but had ego issues and would shut down when asked for context, examples, or client problem statements. Too many times we built Y then we had to face the consequences of not building X when put in front of customers. Very frustrating.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#86

Post by octorian »

Of course people who present you with an XY problem are often the same sorts of people who begin the conversation with my most hated trope of them all...

"Asking to ask"

(Often coupled with diverting the conversation from a public forum, where it can be useful to others, into a private one-on-one conversation where you suddenly become on-the-hook for solving all of their issues.)

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#87

Post by cookie_monsta »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #64
intrepidhero wrote: post #46

To quote the TFA: After much interaction and wasted time , it finally becomes clear that the user really wants help with X, and that Y wasn't even a suitable solution for X. (emphasis mine) Whose time was wasted? For the asker, the exploration of Y and the eventual realization that it is not a good way to pursue X is a learning experience with value. For the answerer, they may feel their time is wasted if the goal is…

>> To quote the TFA Is that how "TFA" is used now?

In imo this is legit

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#88

Post by bhk »

smrq wrote: post #76
bhk wrote: post #74

The mentality of this author is problematic. From the perspective of someone asking for Y, I've often been a victim of this because I'm met with a slew of imagined X's -- X0, X1, X2, ... an unending list of problems, often more complicated than Y -- due to their narrow preconceptions, making the whole exercise of asking someone not worth the time. From the perspective of someone being asked for Y, yes, often I can su…

Not sure why you are complaining about this author in particular when both of the examples in the link show exactly what you asked for: they answer Y and then ask for clarification on X.

Yeah, my comments about the author were mis-placed. This version redacts the source material in a way that comes across as nicer, although it retains the use of "n00b" to identify who is asking the question.

I may have confused this with the "Source 2" linked from the article:

http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem

In its examples, responses include an immediate "Why?" non-answer, an angry "ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT!", and the observation "Literal answers to bad questions can be dangerous" from one presumed non-noob to another.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#89

Post by ziml77 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #62
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you care about absolute accuracy in sufficiently complex pages. There are many use cases I can think of that really don't.

Parsing HTML with regexes is fine if you're not solving a general case . A regex "parser" will carry implicit assumptions about the document structure. Like, I know " .+foo\s+([a-z]+)" will work, because I've crafted it for a specific site whose sources I've seen.

Not sure why you're downvoted. What you're describing is perfectly reasonable. Like you might be scraping a page with no user-generated content. Regex can make a lot of sense because if the regex stops matching, the page probably changed enough that a parser wouldn't stop it from breaking the scraping either.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#90

Post by ziml77 »

moralestapia wrote: post #20
coldtea wrote: post #2

The worst XY problem is knowing you want to do Y, even if its strange or whatever, asking how to do it, and people asking you "why do Y? Do X instead". Happens all the time in Stack Overflow. Just answer the fucking question, and then give the lecture on why you think it should be done that way, or why it shouldn't be done at all...

Regarding SO, it suffers from a strange form of cognitive dissonance: A. You can't ask "what's the best way to do X" because, for whatever reason, these kind of questions are not aligned with "the site's scope". but B. When you ask something specific, you get a lot of "it's better if you do X" answers. I even have had some really nice questions closed because some mods thought I was "asking the wrong thing". Both beh…

I wonder... What if you made a slight phrasing adjustment to ask "what is the idiomatic way to do X?" Would SO be fine with that? It sounds less like a question inviting opinions even if in many cases the answers will be exactly the same as using the word "best".
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