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The XY Problem (2014)

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Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#41

Post by SatvikBeri »

chowells wrote: post #14
coldtea wrote: post #2

The worst XY problem is knowing you want to do Y, even if its strange or whatever, asking how to do it, and people asking you "why do Y? Do X instead". Happens all the time in Stack Overflow. Just answer the fucking question, and then give the lecture on why you think it should be done that way, or why it shouldn't be done at all...

There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…

I've had two cases on SO where I explicitly started my question with "I know X is the standard way to solve this problem, I can't do X because I work at a big company that has policy Z which prevents that, so I'm trying to make Y work, here's what I've done..."

and the question was marked as a duplicate of a "how to do X?" question and closed.

I've also had plenty of good experiences on StackOverflow, so YMMV, but in general I've found other forums better.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#42

Post by moralestapia »

js8 wrote: post #36
moralestapia wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but also to help other users who might face a similar problem They could ask their own questions. I'd rather have a database of specific questions with specific answers than "X-Ys" all over the place.

Your question, without explanation why you want to do Y, when obvious way is to do X, is then not specific enough to people who have XY problem and are not aware of it.

>not specific enough to people who have XY problem and are not aware of it

Again, they should be expected to ask their own questions on the site, so they could get the answers they're looking for. Come on, that's not hard to grasp.

A question like "How to delete a project from Google Cloud Console" [1], should have a clear, definite answer. I wouldn't expect to see something like "this is how you register an account on AWS", just in case "the user is changing providers".

1: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16621921/how-to-delete-a...

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#43

Post by coldtea »

chowells wrote: post #14
coldtea wrote: post #2

The worst XY problem is knowing you want to do Y, even if its strange or whatever, asking how to do it, and people asking you "why do Y? Do X instead". Happens all the time in Stack Overflow. Just answer the fucking question, and then give the lecture on why you think it should be done that way, or why it shouldn't be done at all...

There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…

>There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case.

Well, that's strange, because what they do is still divining. They try to divine "what you actually wanted", even though you asked another thing.

Even worse, a lot of the time the one doing the asking has explicitly said "I know this is unorthodox" or "just answer how to do Y please, don't give me your 'better' options".

It's especially annoying when what you what to do is hack something (and not do it the official way), bypass some restriction that absolutely prevents X, try an alternative style, push the envelope, or generally think Y is better even though the "conventional" sheep-like answer is "do X".

An example of the latter would be trying to use Java with simple POJOs and lite patterns in ~2005, and everybody suggesting you go through some monstrous J2EE setup with half the GoF book thrown in instead because that's "idiomatic".

Or e.g. trying to ask about trying to use a regex to quickly parse some known-quantity HTML where regex will work just fine (say, extract all href out of all a elements), and everybody insisting they lecture you on proper html parsing instead, not caring about your use case.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#45

Post by joe_the_user »

js8 wrote: post #38

I find it strange that some people get offended with this approach to problem solving. There is this legendary interview question, "I have a mountain in India and I want to move it in France, how do I do it?". And some questioners (presumably people who like to be authoritative, in charge and order people around), really seem to dislike if my first impulse is to ask "Why do you want to do that? What is your goal?" An…

To satisfy the authoritarian impulse, one can ask "in what manner should the mountain to be moved? Would just transporting the dirt be enough?"

And if this is "just interview question", the literal answer is "I don't want the fricken mountain moved to France, I just want to this exercise in hypothetical done with and you're not making it easy on me"

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#46

Post by intrepidhero »

To quote the TFA: After much interaction and wasted time, it finally becomes clear that the user really wants help with X, and that Y wasn't even a suitable solution for X. (emphasis mine)

Whose time was wasted? For the asker, the exploration of Y and the eventual realization that it is not a good way to pursue X is a learning experience with value. For the answerer, they may feel their time is wasted if the goal is to answer questions. But if the goal is to help the asker deepen their understanding then the discussion of Y isn't wasted time at all.

This presupposes two things: 1. The asker must have the curiosity and humility to interrogate Y as their chosen method to reach X. 2. The answerer must set aside their ego in order to provide genuine help instead of patronizing advice.

The question/answer format of Stack Overflow does not lend itself to curious exploration of questions and I think the gamification aspect rewards egotistical answerers. I say this despite deriving a lot of value from SO over the years.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#47

Post by chowells »

tedunangst wrote: post #32
chowells wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…

This happens all the time, and no, not only in super exceptional special cases. Ask how to change the spark plugs on a Lotus. Nobody has a freaking clue, but their neighbor told them Lotus is unreliable, so you get half a dozen yahoos replying "you should buy a Toyota, it's more reliable." Thanks, geniuses, but I already have a reliable car, I also happen to like playing with my Lotus, which I did not purchase becaus…

Ok, you're annoyed at rude people. That's fair. Rude people are maddening.

But that's not what the XY problem is about. There is no case where "you should have bought a Toyota" is a valid response to "how do I change the spark plugs on my Lotus?". That's just internet jerks being... Jerks.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#48

Post by systemvoltage »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #18
coldtea wrote: post #2

The worst XY problem is knowing you want to do Y, even if its strange or whatever, asking how to do it, and people asking you "why do Y? Do X instead". Happens all the time in Stack Overflow. Just answer the fucking question, and then give the lecture on why you think it should be done that way, or why it shouldn't be done at all...

I suspect the type of person who answers questions unhelpfully like this is often highly experienced, but without terribly deep technical knowledge (in the rigorous, scientific or academic sense). You get an often practical answer, but it's just not helpful when you are pushing the boundaries in any particular domain.

I think people are treating this is as a binary issue.

IMO both Y should be answered as well as X should be discussed. Why can't an answer have both? The frustrating part is when Y is never to be found on the answer thread.

+ 1 on your username :)

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#49

Post by pwdisswordfish8 »

coldtea wrote: post #43
chowells wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…

> There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. Well, that's strange, because what they do is still divining. They try to divine "what you actually wanted", even though you asked another…

> known-quantity HTML where regex will work just fine (say, extract all href out of all a elements),

Regex doesn’t work fine even on that. You still need to tell apart actual tags from contents of attributes, comments, uninterpreted contents of , and so on. A regex alone doesn’t give you the ability to do that. If you want to parse HTML, you need a parser. Simple as that.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#50

Post by ben509 »

js8 wrote: post #38

I find it strange that some people get offended with this approach to problem solving. There is this legendary interview question, "I have a mountain in India and I want to move it in France, how do I do it?". And some questioners (presumably people who like to be authoritative, in charge and order people around), really seem to dislike if my first impulse is to ask "Why do you want to do that? What is your goal?" An…

> And some questioners ... really seem to dislike if my first impulse is to ask "Why do you want to do that?"

An interview works both ways. If you can suss out the interviewer's nature and help you determine it's not a place you'd want to work, then trust that impulse.

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