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California population declines for first time in more than a century

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Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#141
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No argument from me that higher density population centers tend to be better for the global environment, but that wasn't my point.

Density makes it easier to build the infrastructure to support population growth. Distribution makes it more expensive to build that infrastructure. Thus inreasing distribution hinders rather than helps the ability of California to support a larger population. That seems to directly contradict the points you were making.

Okay. Let's try this: raldi et al are talking about whether the state can support a 150% population increase, but I'm talking about whether 150% more people will want to live there.

Let's walk through some of the numbers and issues in detail, together.

As of 2019, San Francisco county has a population density of about 18,000 people per square mile. Let's say that San Francisco county is the ideal scenario for the Raldi Model. And clearly, lots of people do want to live there now, so it can't be all bad.

Let's take that model and cut the population density in half and extend it across the greater Bay Area. Magic wand, presto-chango, the population density of Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin, Napa, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Solano, and Sonoma counties is now 9,000 people per square mile, uniformly.

That gets us 70 million people in just the greater Bay Area. Awesome! We did it. 30 million people get to share the rest of the state, everything is grand.

What was the cost?

Well, if the greater Bay Area were a country, it would now be the world's 3rd highest population density (give or take) [1]. In terms of scale, it would blow away any other competitors in the list, dwarfing most high-density countries' total populations by a significant factor, except Bangladesh.

There was a thread yesterday on California's water woes [2]. What impact would the Raldi Model have on the state's water demand? San Francisco County uses about 41 gallons of water per person per day [3], which is less than half the state average. Fantastic! We only need to find about 3 billion gallons of water per day to serve this area, or 5.6 million acre-feet per year. This amounts to only about 5% more water than the state is currently consuming, so we only need to build one new reservoir that's a little bigger than the Shasta Reservoir, the state's current largest, and, somehow, fill it. Or, build 175 more Carlsbad desalination plants at $1 billion each, your choice.

Okay, water's solved! Next, energy. We only need an additional 448 TWh to serve this area at current San Francisco County per-capita usage levels [4]. Well ... 449, since we tore down the Altamont Pass Wind Farm and replaced it with high density housing. California currently consumes around 260 TWh statewide [5], so... uhh... we'll build 10 more nuclear power plants somewhere [6], somehow -- handwaving away all the costs and political challenges, and also their locations, since Diablo Canyon sits on 900 now very valuable acres of real estate. And the rest, let's just say rooftop solar covers the gap, haha.

Recreational space! Well, look, I have some bad news here. A lot of parks are gone now. Mount Diablo, the entire East Bay Regional Park system, the wildlife refuges in the north bay, Point Reyes, Muir Woods, they're all gone. Fortunately, people have all the same walkable concrete that San Francisco has. But, if you want to get away from one of the world's densest population centers for the weekend, don't go to Yosemite: due to consistently high traffic and the impacts it causes, Yosemite is using a reservation system for day passes now [7], and they'll want no part of 70 million more people visiting from the Bay Area.

Waste management: here, the Raldi Model gets a big point in its favor, since San Francisco overall does a magical job of reducing waste and landfill usage through multiple programs [8], although I'm skeptical we're getting a complete picture [9]. Even so, San Francisco County takes advantage of nearby open spaces for things like composting, and those open spaces are gone, so more waste needs to be transported farther afield and handled there. But, compared to the last few logistical issues we've handwaved away, this one's a peach.

Let's fast forward a bit and assume that everything else is taken care of too. There are enough teachers. All the paving that needs to be paved has been paved. Everyone is still, somehow, able to get all of the locally-grown organic food products that San Francisco County currently demands, we just have to stretch the definition of "locally grown" a bit. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory was found to be taking up valuable real estate, so it was relocated to let's say San Diego, they'd love to have it there. All the trillions of dollars needed to make all this happen just sort of flew in and everybody looked at the plan and went, "yep, looks good to me."

Now, honest question: do you, personally, want to live here?

Lots of people would, no doubt. Lots of people live there now. But it's unclear how many people actually enjoy living there, and that kind of population density brings some serious human problems along with it [10].

I am extremely skeptical that, even if all the logistical problems could feasibly be solved, we'd find 70 million people in this country that would choose to live in that region once all the dust settled.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27068716

[3]: https://sfwater.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=145...

[4]: https://ecdms.energy.ca.gov/elecbycounty.aspx

[5]: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/05/f22/CA-Energ...

[6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_Canyon_Power_Plant

[7]: https://www.nps.gov/yose/learn/news/yosemite-national-park-t...

[8]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/13/how-san-francisco-became-a-g...

[9]: https://discardstudies.com/2013/12/06/san-franciscos-famous-...

[10]: https://idlewords.com/talks/notes_from_an_emergency.htm, ctrl-f "excrement". Also https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/17/san-franc..., https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/19/technology/san-francisco-..., etc.

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#142
post #18

Paradise on Earth and home to the world’s brightest-future industry; California could easily grow to 100M residents if it simply allowed housing to be built to accommodate all the people who want to live here. And it would be a net win for the climate, because most of them would be coming from much less eco-friendly places.

I grew up in a high population density area with 3 generation sharing the same apartment because that was the way to go. It is far from being a bright future one would want. Constant conflicts in the family because the grandparents want to watch TV, parents need to rest after work, and the child wants to study. Constantly hearing your neighbors when they want to have a party, or do some renovation. Trashed up common…

It sounds like you’re mixing up density and crowding: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwBYGX7VcAIwYXL.jpg

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm usually a huge cheerleader for most things California, but I think this comment is missing some important considerations. Namely, people don't just need housing, they also need food, energy, water, transportation, waste management, employment, education, health care, and space for recreation. Every new home that goes up requires a lot of infrastructure to support a healthy population. And people don't want to be…

You’re basically saying people should live in the desert or farmland, where there are not many good jobs, because you don’t want to be inconvenienced. But worse than that is the head in the sand attitude that if only people held the same opinion as you, the problem would fix itself. No amount of opinion will fix the mismatch between jobs and housing in California’s large urban areas

Pardon?

Where am I "basically saying" any of those things?

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#144
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Density makes it easier to build the infrastructure to support population growth. Distribution makes it more expensive to build that infrastructure. Thus inreasing distribution hinders rather than helps the ability of California to support a larger population. That seems to directly contradict the points you were making.

Okay. Let's try this: raldi et al are talking about whether the state can support a 150% population increase, but I'm talking about whether 150% more people will want to live there. Let's walk through some of the numbers and issues in detail, together. As of 2019, San Francisco county has a population density of about 18,000 people per square mile. Let's say that San Francisco county is the ideal scenario for the Ral…

If the Tokyo we know didn’t exist because long ago they enacted single-family-houses-only zoning, I’m sure we’d see a comment like this explaining why it would be impossible to scale its metropolitan-area population to 14M people, or find 14M people who would want to live there.

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#145
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does letting those pensions go bankrupt help anything? If the funds go bankrupt, it isn't the executives who used financial shenanigans to bleed the funds dry that face consequences. It is the employees who had no role in the management of the pension funds that end up punished. If you want to actually stop that bad behavior, we need to massively overhaul how we address whitecollar crime in this country so that b…

Do you have reading material on how the funds have gotten into dire straits?

It depends on which type of pension fund and is generally more complicated than a single reason.

One big general cause of failure was that companies were allowed to stop paying into the funds without paying enough into the fund to cover their employees who would receive.

However, the particulars don't actually matter here. No matter the reason, it will have been the responsibility of the employer, fund manager or government regulators. The average Joe, who will lose his retirement if the pension is allowed to go bankrupt, didn't have enough control of the fund to be held responsible. As such, punishing him will do nothing to de-incentivize this from happening again.

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#146

I want to be sympathetic but this is a direct result of how Californians vote and of how they view the role of government.

Its a direct result of of the pandemic; particularly its effect on international migration. Prior, California was growing, small net internal outmigration offset by net internation immigration.

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#147
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's try this: raldi et al are talking about whether the state can support a 150% population increase, but I'm talking about whether 150% more people will want to live there. Let's walk through some of the numbers and issues in detail, together. As of 2019, San Francisco county has a population density of about 18,000 people per square mile. Let's say that San Francisco county is the ideal scenario for the Ral…

If the Tokyo we know didn’t exist because long ago they enacted single-family-houses-only zoning, I’m sure we’d see a comment like this explaining why it would be impossible to scale its metropolitan-area population to 14M people, or find 14M people who would want to live there.

I put about an hour of effort into gathering the numbers and citations for my comment. Flippant low-effort replies like yours really discourage putting any effort into commenting on HN.

I suppose I should have instead just said, "if raldi were right, the whole world would be Tokyo by now, wouldn't it?" and left it at that.

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#148
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

should the "democrats" have just let them fail? what would a different party have done? why did the party even matter?

Why should the federal government bailout private pensions?

to help the citizens who, outside of their control, lost that retirement fund.

D or R (or whatever) the Govt (via fellow taxpayers) should help other citizens.

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#149
post #45

We should be building Fabs in California, Cars in California, getting the smartest people in the world here, in solid numbers. Perhaps we’re in a global competition and we’ll not be the largest economy soon, perhaps we’re too busy with pronouns to notice. People pattern-matched that the house prices always went up, assumed it was an axiom, and that drove us into a recession. Gavin Newsom will observe that California…

It seems like Silicon Valley, as it's increasingly moved towards being dominated by a few giants, has increasingly been dominated by the employee bureaucracy class that you describe.

Instead of companies filled with risk takers working for crazy founders, now it's just the path followers playing it safe, checking off the boxes to go get the guaranteed money and not that much work at the FAANGS.

Re: California population declines for first time in more than a century

#150
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Density makes it easier to build the infrastructure to support population growth. Distribution makes it more expensive to build that infrastructure. Thus inreasing distribution hinders rather than helps the ability of California to support a larger population. That seems to directly contradict the points you were making.

Okay. Let's try this: raldi et al are talking about whether the state can support a 150% population increase, but I'm talking about whether 150% more people will want to live there. Let's walk through some of the numbers and issues in detail, together. As of 2019, San Francisco county has a population density of about 18,000 people per square mile. Let's say that San Francisco county is the ideal scenario for the Ral…

> I am extremely skeptical that, even if all the logistical problems could feasibly be solved, we'd find 70 million people in this country that would choose to live in that region once all the dust settled.

Well they'll have to, because there are a limited number of areas in the US making jobs. And the US population is growing not shrinking, so even if jobs fan out to other, less-crowded population centers, we're just kicking the can down the road. Let's not forget about all the pollution that vehicles cause, which is a direct side effect of suburban sprawl. According to US gov't data [1], transportation is almost 30% of our emissions.

https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec2_2.pdf

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