Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time • Hacker News Board

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#71

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 06, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

freshair wrote: post #69

anthony_romeo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if someone loses their legs on the eventual Mars base? Are they just SOL until another 20 years of research to accommodate people without limbs? There are an infinite number of what-if scenarios that can be cherry-picked to form an argument.

> What if someone loses their legs on the eventual Mars base? Are they just SOL Realistically? Yeah, I think they'd die. Even if the Mars base had a trauma surgeon, which is a big 'if', would they really be equipped to handle something that severe? Would there even be enough medical staff to support a surgery that involved? If so, that's must be a very developed Mars base. If the Mars base has facilities more compara…

[deleted]

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#72

Post by CountDrewku » Thu, May 06, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

anthony_romeo wrote: post #50

_u1dn wrote: post #44

Space exploration seems difficult and delayed enough without this virtue signaling. Supporting disabilities would add a number of new challenges on top of the existing ones, and with marginal practical benefit (increasing the pool of potential astronauts by the small minority that have disabilities). Being an astronaut is a ridiculously selective process, it’s not like disabled people are missing out on something her…

This is a bad take and arbitrarily discriminatory, and I don't like this sort of reactionary anti-virtue signalling I've been seeing a lot on HN recently. You did not establish that the "new challenges" are especially difficult to overcome, nor that they're not worth undertaking. There can be a lot to learn through this process, and that by itself is valuable. YOU seem to believe that there is only marginal practical…

>I can't quite understand why you believe that merely increasing the pool of applicants is a bad idea

That's not the argument. The argument is barrier of entry is lowered to allow these individuals a chance. It's the same argument with the U.S. military and they have in fact lowered their standards to allow women into roles they couldn't get into before.

Now, if they don't change the barrier of entry and keep the same standards for disabled individuals I guess your take makes sense. However, if that's the case then you're going to have to admit it IS virtue signaling since they'd actually be changing nothing. You've put yourself in a catch-22.

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#73

Post by redis_mlc » Thu, May 06, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #33

redis_mlc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the full story is ... The vast majority of pilot applicants don't really need to be concerned with their vision: - civil: will pass the vision requirements with correction to 20/20 near (the instrument panel) and far with glasses, contacts or surgery. - US military: last time I checked, one service allows laser surgery, and the others are evaluating it. I don't recommend eye surgery for civil pilots because of…

USAF's pilot vision requirements shift based on need and also aircraft type (which relates to number of applicants). For fighter aircraft they generally require 20/20 vision but permit correction for some candidates (particularly USAF Academy grads), usually up to 20/50-20/70 range. Many more people want to be fighter pilots than fly other kinds of aircraft so they can be picky here. For heavies (cargo, bomber) and h…

Surgery, when allowed by the military, is acceptable to them because the military pilot's career is over fairly soon.

But the pilot has to evaluate the impact of the eye shape changing in middle-age, negating the surgery benefits, and either requiring surgery again (if possible - multiple PRKs is iffy), glasses/contacts, or retirement.

People are very casual about the risks, but pilots shouldn't be.

https://www.aviationmedicine.com/article/vision-and-faa-stan...

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#74

Post by anthony_romeo » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

CountDrewku wrote: post #72

anthony_romeo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bad take and arbitrarily discriminatory, and I don't like this sort of reactionary anti-virtue signalling I've been seeing a lot on HN recently. You did not establish that the "new challenges" are especially difficult to overcome, nor that they're not worth undertaking. There can be a lot to learn through this process, and that by itself is valuable. YOU seem to believe that there is only marginal practical…

>I can't quite understand why you believe that merely increasing the pool of applicants is a bad idea That's not the argument. The argument is barrier of entry is lowered to allow these individuals a chance. It's the same argument with the U.S. military and they have in fact lowered their standards to allow women into roles they couldn't get into before. Now, if they don't change the barrier of entry and keep the sam…

That’s absolutely the argument... What other argument was there? You didn’t actually point it out, unless your minor rephrasing of one sentence of what I wrote somehow invalidates my point.

And where does the accusation of virtue signaling come in here? It sounds like it’s not a superficial change they’re making. What’s the difference between “virtue signaling” and merely “a press release announcing policy changes”, exactly? Where is this needless cynicism coming from?

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#75

Post by mzkply » Thu, May 06, 2021, 11:09 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #51

mzkply wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm frankly not sure how this is relevant to a survival scenario where people may or may not be injured. Anyway, the entire ISS is built around astronauts using their feet as anchors, allowing them to use their hands for work. Without legs, you wouldn't be able to do maintain your position while working in 0g, hence the challenges of spacewalking. There's plenty of videos where astros show how the top of their feet b…

Again, look to Oscar Pistorius for a concrete example. The man has the same ability to move around as someone with legs, they're just made of carbon fiber. Many prosthetics have sophisticated articulation. We're a long way past the days of peg legs. I fully expect an organization capable of creating the ISS to be capable of figuring out a way for prosthetics to be usable onboard. Put a bit of velcro on one of these,…

I’d wouldn’t frame this debate as being about preventing people from entering a store, or going up stairs, or running in a straight line fast, or living a normal life.

This about a government choosing to spend many millions of dollars over 10 years to train this one person to do an insanely difficult job. So you can bet that any disability of any kind is going to be intolerable. They will pick people with 0 physical, mental, behavioural or cognitive disability. Bum kidneys? Out. Don’t react well to a fire or spiders or smoke? Out. Can’t solve the orbits question in less than 63 seconds? Out. Argumentative and not the best team player? Out. Sadly, this will also apply to any sort of physical limitation as well. It would be trivial to add some Velcro here and there, yes, but making the entire astronaut training circuit itself accessible, from everything like the 0g sim harnesses, which expect the weight of legs, to flight training, to the Russian centers, is sadly not gonna happen.

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#76

Post by CountDrewku » Thu, May 06, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

anthony_romeo wrote: post #74

CountDrewku wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can't quite understand why you believe that merely increasing the pool of applicants is a bad idea That's not the argument. The argument is barrier of entry is lowered to allow these individuals a chance. It's the same argument with the U.S. military and they have in fact lowered their standards to allow women into roles they couldn't get into before. Now, if they don't change the barrier of entry and keep the sam…

That’s absolutely the argument... What other argument was there? You didn’t actually point it out, unless your minor rephrasing of one sentence of what I wrote somehow invalidates my point. And where does the accusation of virtue signaling come in here? It sounds like it’s not a superficial change they’re making. What’s the difference between “virtue signaling” and merely “a press release announcing policy changes”,…

I feel like you're not fully thinking this through-

1. Let's say it's not a superficial "virtue-signalling" change which means it cannot be just widening their selection field as you suggested because that alone IS a superficial change unless... 2. They've decided that the they're going to change standards to make it easier for disabled individuals to gain entry which addresses the actual argument that candidates will be of lower quality and possibly cause worse results. 3. Your argument cannot logically hold water because you're presenting two cognitively dissonant ideas. For it not to be virtue signaling they would need to do more than just say they're opening up the program for disabled people. However, if they do that then #2 comes back into play and you've still lost part of the argument where you suggest it won't produce lower quality results.

The only way your idea holds water is if the disabled individuals are able to pass the current standards, which doesn't really make sense or they most likely wouldn't have those standards against certain disabled individuals to begin with.

>Where is this needless cynicism coming from?

This isn't cynicism it's just a logical thought pattern, stop injecting unnecessary emotions into it. No one wants a lower quality space program just so we can make some people feel better.

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#77

Post by anthony_romeo » Fri, May 07, 2021, 12:16 AM UTC

CountDrewku wrote: post #76

anthony_romeo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s absolutely the argument... What other argument was there? You didn’t actually point it out, unless your minor rephrasing of one sentence of what I wrote somehow invalidates my point. And where does the accusation of virtue signaling come in here? It sounds like it’s not a superficial change they’re making. What’s the difference between “virtue signaling” and merely “a press release announcing policy changes”,…

I feel like you're not fully thinking this through- 1. Let's say it's not a superficial "virtue-signalling" change which means it cannot be just widening their selection field as you suggested because that alone IS a superficial change unless... 2. They've decided that the they're going to change standards to make it easier for disabled individuals to gain entry which addresses the actual argument that candidates wil…

You’re overthinking it. This is a study to better inform the needs of disabled people in space. You know, for the future. I happen to think that research about the types of accommodations needed for people with disabilities is valuable, and the earlier we learn the unknown-unknowns here the better. You seem to think that this is somehow a wokeist ploy which will lower the “quality” of the space program (whatever that’s supposed to mean), so you’re making a bunch of hypothetical points that actually don’t matter and trying to “logic” your way to victory with a bunch of flimsy premises.

BTW I hope there are no hard feelings. Sometimes I just like arguing.

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#78

Post by pseudalopex » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:29 AM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #67

gostsamo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, because it implies that people with disabilities cannot be the best fit for a job and their achievements are not as good as anybody else's but a wasteful charity that is yet another box in a compliance checklist.

Downvote isn't a "I don't agree with your logic" button.

Paul Graham said it is.[1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#79

Post by ksaj » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:58 AM UTC

anthony_romeo wrote: post #62

me_me_me wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first gut reaction to this initiative is a bit negative. There are handful astronauts in the world for a reason. It is probably the most challenging environment where you need to be at your peak both mentally and physically. I am all for inclusion but as article states only 550 people or so went into space. That's an insanely low number. For comparison world wide on average there are 3000 deaths due to car crashes…

Lol, as if you or I can meaningfully tell the difference between a "PR Stunt" and a valid hire. If you see an astronaut with a prosthetic leg in the next five years, are you going to just automatically presume that they are unworthy of the position? I certainly wouldn't arbitrarily belittle an astronaut like that -- doing so would be shameful IMO.

If the candidate can complete the regular training and other standard screenings, I'm good.

Re: Astronauts with disabilities can apply to Europe's space agency for first time

#80

Post by _aunn » Fri, May 07, 2021, 4:02 AM UTC

gostsamo wrote: post #37

_aunn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i agree with the second half of your comment, but with regards to the first part, don’t you think that space travel — an endeavor that subjects the human body and mind to immense, unadapted-for stress — can/should only be undertaken by the most physically and mentally capable? we’re hardly experts at space travel (google says only 533 people have been to orbit). given that number, any disability is significant for th…

We are sending people in space for the last sixty years. Each of them has been monitored comprehensively and we know what are the stressors during those missions. Especially when it comes to height and legs, they doesn't mean much in zero gravity. If the person is tough enough to survive the acceleration, they should be good to go. The only real issue might be if the equipment has some hidden assumptions for the arm…

height i could understand. reasonably short people seem like they’d be advantageous for space travel, up to a point — same as pilots on earth. but legs seem.. pretty important. i can’t imagine that someone without legs would be as mobile or able to stabilise themselves as well as legged individuals in low gravity, and doing an eva to repair something outside a spacecraft would seem especially perilous.