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Why I Work on Ads

jefftk.com

641–650 of 882 posts

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#641
post #631

Regardless of what this author thinks. Advertising is the bane of our existence. How many hours have we wasted watching advertisements (whether it's in the form of network television, billboards, radio ads, or intermittent ads in VOD sites like YT)? If your product is good, then you wouldn't need to advertise (take for example, Ferrari or Lamborghini). If companies focused on making their products better rather than…

I hate a lot of things about advertising, but "If your product is good, then you wouldn't need to advertise" is a very naive take. In spite of my aversion to ads, I see some concrete benefits:

- new and upcoming products - think Tesla in 2010, or Signal messenger in 2020/21

- making things accessible for those who can't afford them - I know a lot of folks who'd rather watch YT ads than fork over 15$ to Google every month. They simply don't have that much money

- letting me know about stuff I was not thinking about but am happy to know now - eg. interesting summer camps for my kids

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#642
post #631

Regardless of what this author thinks. Advertising is the bane of our existence. How many hours have we wasted watching advertisements (whether it's in the form of network television, billboards, radio ads, or intermittent ads in VOD sites like YT)? If your product is good, then you wouldn't need to advertise (take for example, Ferrari or Lamborghini). If companies focused on making their products better rather than…

>If your product is good, then you wouldn't need to advertise I believe it is simplification. Let's say that I want to get good standing desk or chair - how can I discover those smaller players that make good products? I don't want to spend time on some ChairHackerNews for 2 months and read about this stuff

Imagine if Google wasn’t full of BS ads and SEO link farms and you could easily find the blog posts and reviews of products from smaller players that make good products?

As much as search used to suck, I kind of long for the days where I could organically find products by searching.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#643
post #632
post #631

Regardless of what this author thinks. Advertising is the bane of our existence. How many hours have we wasted watching advertisements (whether it's in the form of network television, billboards, radio ads, or intermittent ads in VOD sites like YT)? If your product is good, then you wouldn't need to advertise (take for example, Ferrari or Lamborghini). If companies focused on making their products better rather than…

What if all products are good? How does one stand out?

From a social good perspective, if they're all good your product shouldn't stand out.

The argument here isn't that ads aren't good for the business doing the advertising, it's that they're bad for the community at large.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#644
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we would have those jobs if they produced more value to whoever is asking for those holes to be dug. And that's the reality we presently live in. It's not holes, it's watching ads and reading things that aren't worth our time and buying things that don't provide us value. Click on a link, dig a hole. Read the mindless alarm-inducing article, fill the hole in.

> No, we would have those jobs if they produced more value to whoever is asking for those holes to be dug. Can you provide example of businesses where employees produce value just for the owners of the business but not the society in general? > And that's the reality we presently live in. It's not holes, it's watching ads and reading things that aren't worth our time and buying things that don't provide us value. Cli…

> Can you provide example of businesses where employees produce value just for the owners of the business but not the society in general?

Much of the financial sector. M&A firms. Lobbying. SEO. Fake web traffic generators. App/game companies that only clone others. Content mills. Collection agencies. Old growth loggers. Ticket scalpers.

It's a little tricky because the most common scenario provides benefit to somebody, even if the overall social cost is far higher than that benefit. The customers of drug dealers want the product. Sleazy personal injury lawyers' clients gain from their services. Crypto miners.

>> And that's the reality we presently live in. It's not holes, it's watching ads and reading things that aren't worth our time and buying things that don't provide us value. Click on a link, dig a hole. Read the mindless alarm-inducing article, fill the hole in. > What are you proposing? That some entity tells what to read, what to buy, what to do? Why not just leave it to individuals to figure it out?

Uh, I'm not sure how you got there from what I said. I could make an argument for regulation, but I didn't.

We live an existence of partial information, and that's very exploitable. "Clickbait" is pejorative because it works but the expected payoff is not there. We are where the "free" market put us, though the market is not very free -- there's regulatory capture, information inequalities, and massive externalities that would not exist without the previous two.

I don't need to propose a guaranteed-effective fix in order to make the point that much economic activity provides zero or negative value.

If I had to point in the direction of a solution, I'd say that antitrust laws are vaguely the right idea, except they are based on very outdated notions of harm to consumers, and are also subject to regulatory capture. We need to make serious attempts at capturing more externalities. Even something as straightforward as a carbon tax is hard to define and implement, but it's the right idea; we need something similar for the massive damage done to people's time and attention, to civil society, to the commons. Capitalism got us here; it won't get us out. Although it's one of the tools that can and should be used.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#645

The online ad business generally mystifies me. While an awful lot of the internet, especially the surveillance advertising part, looks to be the greatest misallocation of engineering (and other) talent in the history of the world, ya gotta ask about the efficacy. The only reasonably accurate targeting I've ever run into is the occasional ad for something I just browsed on Amazon. I've never clicked on an internet ad.…

One of the interesting things about advertising is that nobody really knows if it works, and there's a growing body of evidence that it largely doesn't work.

We are sold on the idea that they work, because someone clicks this ad, we track them, they buy the product, and we attribute the sale to that ad.

But we don't know whether the customer would have bought anyway. And some research suggests that, for the most part, they would have.

Steve Tadelis at Berkeley wrote a paper in 2013 demonstrating little to no efficacy of nine figures of ad spend at eBay.

http://conference.nber.org/confer/2013/EoDs13/Tadelis.pdf

This may not be true of all ads - ads for little-known brands, for example, may reach people who would have never heard of it. But the bulk of advertising bought by large brands may largely be a waste.

Advertisers still spend money because almost nobody is getting paid to rain on the parade. There's an endless stream of ad agencies, paid search marketers, marketing department staff themselves, CMOs, media properties, ad nauseam who are all invested in continuing marketing spend. A CMO will almost never declare that his department is useless. So they continue to make the case for their continued relevance.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#646
Disclaimer: I work at Google too (not ads), all opinions my own.

I'm surprised the author focused singularly on the "funding the open web" stance, and did not discuss the alleged negative externalities created by advertising-driven business incentives. The top comments of the blog comments (e.g. https://www.jefftk.com/p/why-i-work-on-ads#lw-Nvd9ZHJLxZpNZD...) also point this out.

For instance, The Netflix documentary "The Social Dilemma" discusses these at length, and it forms a lot of the political zeitgeist around regulation of adtech companies (e.g. driving polarization, radicalization, depression and such).

> The question is, what is the alternative? I see two main funding models:

It's possible to simultaneously believe that ads are currently the effective way to lower barrier of entry to accessing content, and also believe that ads are a detriment to people's mental health.

One alternative would be an ad-supported system that performs less-personalized ad-targeting, and in doing so influences people's behavior less but generates enough revenue to keep the lights on with a reasonable profit margin. The government has laws for regulating natural monopolies like this, where they prevent utility companies from price gouging but grant them a certain amount of margin.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#647
The author writes that you can either pay with money or you can “pay with your attention”. What’s left unsaid is the cost of that attention. I believe that cost is very high and it isn’t just ads, it’s the design of countless products including social media sites, games and even the site you’re reading this on right now. It’s all designed to extract as much attention as possible, and the cost is people’s ability to concentrate, learn and get shit done. The cost is, in other words, staggeringly high.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#648
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those are troubling industries (which I agree) it should be illegal to advertise those products. That doesn't mean advertising as a methodology is bad.

What value does advertising produce? I mean it, if advertising magically ceased to exist tomorrow, would anything be worse? Advertising is in itself a manipulative activity, an attempt to pass a worse product as a better one, or to create a demand where there was none, or to persuade someone to do something they otherwise wouldn't.

1) New small businesses (like Shopify stores) can reach customers without going through retail gatekeepers. Ask any Shopify seller, nothing beats FB.

2) New challenger SaaS brands can get in front of customers to compete with mammoth corporate brands with worse software (I see this all the time on my job).

3) Without good ad targeting, only bottom hanging fruit advertisers that appeal to the lowest common denominator can afford to spend. Weight loss, teeth whitening, etc. Good ad targeting means a better user experience with ads.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#649
> I think advertising is positive

> (…)

> So: why is advertising good? (…) The question is, what is the alternative?

“I can’t think of a better alternative than the status quo, thus the status quo is positive” isn’t a sound conclusion. Every sufficiently ingrained societal negative we’ve abolished since was likely reasoned in that manner at one point.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#650
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, do you have an example of someone being hurt by tracking and data collection done by Facebook and Google?

Cambridge analytica, brexit (economically) hurt a lot of people. Similarly the regime changes in 3rd world countries that these guys engaged in probably physically hurt quite a few people. I mean there are so many examples it's difficult to believe this is a genuine question. It sort of like asking in 1984 did anyone really get hurt by big brother watching?

Cambridge is a nonsense story that people who know fb ads at all laugh at. It didn't impact the election or any election in any way.
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