Why I Work on Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#581

Post by andrepd » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #140

alxlaz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do all the examples from the advertising industry have such easy-peasy, neutral goods? Fishing equipment. Basket weaving books. Dog food. Targeted advertising hasn't been a blessing just for small businesses selling fishing equipment and organic combucha, but also -- actually, especially , for companies that sell things like: * Potentially addictive subscriptions (for e.g. online casinos or other gambling games)…

You can make similar arguments for almost all jobs. You make cars? You focus on good things like driving to a vacation, but what about all the cars used in drive by shootings? You sell cloud services? You talk about the great websites, but what about all the people who host scam sites on the cloud? You write monitoring software? What about all the people who monitor ad services?

Bullshit. Targeting depressed teenagers with self-esteem issues is not the same thing as selling a car.

You cannot be in good-faith with these kinds of arguments.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#582

Post by analog31 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

hermesfeet wrote: post #571

Thanks for laying out your logic. I work in the ads business at FB. I do so because I personally like ads and my biggest gripe is that ads are not relevant and personalized enough. I want better ads. Ultimately ads support a robust ecosystem of free software and content that keeps many creators going. Consumers can also choose to buy their software and content, or donate, but most don’t. Despite their whining, most p…

Is it really conceivable that the Web would have been stillborn without ads, or with limits to the externalities of ads? Does "software will eat the world" only mean "software will eat the world if it can sell ads?"

I'm pretty sure ads don't support the cell phone industry, or at least didn't support its exponential growth phase, yet the middle class and poor have cell phones.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#583

Post by andrepd » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #178

alxlaz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do all the examples from the advertising industry have such easy-peasy, neutral goods? Fishing equipment. Basket weaving books. Dog food. Targeted advertising hasn't been a blessing just for small businesses selling fishing equipment and organic combucha, but also -- actually, especially , for companies that sell things like: * Potentially addictive subscriptions (for e.g. online casinos or other gambling games)…

If those are troubling industries (which I agree) it should be illegal to advertise those products. That doesn't mean advertising as a methodology is bad.

What value does advertising produce? I mean it, if advertising magically ceased to exist tomorrow, would anything be worse? Advertising is in itself a manipulative activity, an attempt to pass a worse product as a better one, or to create a demand where there was none, or to persuade someone to do something they otherwise wouldn't.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#584

Post by joshuamorton » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

I want to make an interesting meta-comment here:

One of the common criticisms of ads is how they impact privacy. I'm not going to pick any particular comment there, because I agree with some and disagree with others and find some to be incoherent. But the core issue is that ads (and the associated tracking and data collection) are an unethical privacy intrusion.

I think that some of the arguments (especially the ones I find incoherent) are because some people value privacy for privacy's sake. That is, I usually try to look at my privacy from the perspective of threats I care about. Some people don't do that, they want privacy for the sake of privacy. Privacy as a goal, not as a means to an end of avoiding specific attacks. When I ask these kinds fo people what kinds of privacy "attacks" they're afraid of, I get things that sounds to me like conspiracy theories.

This isn't wrong, it's just fundamentally different than how I approach things. I expect (given that Jeff publishes his salary every year and is super transparent about many things) he's similarly not worried about privacy as a goal, and instead cares about "circumstantial" privacy.

I wonder if this difference in values is part of the disconnect.

I think another part of the disconnect is that once you have insight into an organization, is much easier to see how it actually works. It's very easy to presume bad things as an outsider than an insider. But by the same token, it's somewhat rational for an outsider to not believe an insider who says "no just trust me, we aren't doing that". And so this too isn't an easy thing to fix without some sort of radical transparency on the part of the company (and even then).

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#585

Post by scubbo » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #522

kingsuper20 wrote: post #61

The online ad business generally mystifies me. While an awful lot of the internet, especially the surveillance advertising part, looks to be the greatest misallocation of engineering (and other) talent in the history of the world, ya gotta ask about the efficacy. The only reasonably accurate targeting I've ever run into is the occasional ad for something I just browsed on Amazon. I've never clicked on an internet ad.…

We should not call them Ads. Ads used to be passive, one-way means to turn ones attention to something. Now-days "Ads" are a watching you.

I get your point, but this is inaccurate. Advertizing has always been targeted based on the demographic most likely to see them - deciding to air a TV ad during Saturday morning cartoons, during a football match, or during a soap opera has very meaningful differences. The only change now is that the granularity of information available for targeting has increased.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#586

Post by sophacles » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

hermesfeet wrote: post #571

Thanks for laying out your logic. I work in the ads business at FB. I do so because I personally like ads and my biggest gripe is that ads are not relevant and personalized enough. I want better ads. Ultimately ads support a robust ecosystem of free software and content that keeps many creators going. Consumers can also choose to buy their software and content, or donate, but most don’t. Despite their whining, most p…

> I think people comparing ads to guns, plagues, and locusts need to check their own values. Ads support free stuff for the poor and middle classes.

Until i can ACTUALLY opt out by paying money, you need to get off your high horse. My data is clearly more valuable to you than my dollars - otherwise I'd have a choice.

> If you hate ads, lean into that. Don’t work for adtech, block all your ads, pay for everything. I support you and respect that!

I do, pls continue to support me by:

1. making it possible to not have my data constantly collected and sold by facebook in exchange for dollars.

2. Stop tracking me after my account has been deleted.

3. Stop acting like you are part of something good while I don't have a "no surveilance" option. Until then, YOU are the problem.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#587

Post by andrepd » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

rpicard wrote: post #44

Just wanted to mention I appreciate seeing a different perspective here. I know there's a lot of negative reaction to it, and I can empathize with that because there's a long history of negative behavior by the advertising industry. But there's no doubt that there are benefits too, and seeing some nuance on HN is always a win.

I see advertising as intrinsically immoral. So it's not only the privacy abuses (which are the most serious part) but advertising in general.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#588

Post by angarg12 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

I work in ads, not particularly because I like the domain, but because it's a great tech challenge. I got the chance to work in large scale systems and solve hard problems using fun technologies. As an engineer, it's my favourite job so far.

Beyond that, people who ask such things are just taking the moral high ground.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#589

Post by andrepd » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

djdjdjdjdj wrote: post #108

I invented 'antiad'. I see an annoying ad in public space? I might get in contact with them to complain about that ad. I think it is just fair to tell someone my honest opinion as soon as they take the time and effort to target me. I'm totally lost on why we support generic unrelevant ads in public spaces. It makes our cities ugly.

Absolutely. I cannot even walk through my city without an assault being waged on my senses.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#590

Post by Datsundere » Thu, May 06, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #570

DogOnTheWeb wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a position on a better alternative business model, or do you feel that a service like YouTube shouldn't exist? It seems to me that YouTube and many of the ad-supported services out there provide broad benefits to people, and I am swayed by OPs point that a regressively priced business model which restricts these benefits to the global rich is a greater disservice.

> Do you have a position on a better alternative business model Sure! Thanks for asking. One idea I like is this: you pay a small, fixed subscription on top of your internet bill. This amount is then given proportionally to the services you visit. This is nice for several reasons: even a small amount (~3-5$) gives a similar or higher revenue for content creators than ads do (a very rough back-of-the-envelope estimate…

Ads should not exist period. Youtube worked without ads before and it can work without ads. I don't need to be paying a premium to use a service.

Why are ads the way to generate revenue? Like I don't care about buying a coffee grinder. Ads not only help contribute to needless purchases but also directly affect the environment cause of that.