Why I Work on Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#351

Post by amelius » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #88

jasode wrote: post #29

The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I will offer a contrarian opinion as a user whose salary does not depend on advertising: the advertising model for using Google search and watching Youtube videos works better for me as a consumer . The alternati…

I find the "ads are useful" argument frustratingly disingenuous. It's a transparent and deliberate attempt to move the discussion away from what people actually take issue with in modern internet advertising - tracking and data collection - and instead tries to frame it as something far more benign. The ads. Aren't. The problem. The stalking is. Ads can be useful. But no one is saying they aren't! So why is it consta…

We should research how much ads contribute to overconsumption and hence the demise of the planet. If the connection becomes clear, then there really is no excuse left for ads.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#352

Post by code4you » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

kingsuper20 wrote: post #61

The online ad business generally mystifies me. While an awful lot of the internet, especially the surveillance advertising part, looks to be the greatest misallocation of engineering (and other) talent in the history of the world, ya gotta ask about the efficacy. The only reasonably accurate targeting I've ever run into is the occasional ad for something I just browsed on Amazon. I've never clicked on an internet ad.…

I totally agree about the YouTube advertising. YouTube literally has hundreds of hours of my video history to work with, yet the vast majority of the ads I see are completely unrelated to my interests. What's the point of all the tracking if they can't even show me relevant ads on YouTube of all places? Podcast ads tend to be much more relevant, and I can even recall purchases I've made due to them. AFAIK my podcast player isn't tracking me or using targeted ads.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#353

Post by alienthrowaway » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

Speaking as someone from the developing world - ads have been excellent way for 1st-world eyeballs to subsidize access to information for the rest of the world - which is a net-positive from my selfish POV. Money from ads allows people who live on less than a dollar a day to have access to the same content as someone in a sea-side villa. Mostly.

Paywalls, subscriptions and micropayment are regressive, unless they are indexed by cost of living.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#354

Post by xondono » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #335

omginternets wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I don't think that's why people are downvoting. Speaking for myself, it's because his analysis focuses only on the benefits of ads, and conveniently ignores the actual ethical problems ( e.g. large-scale collect…

In the span of just a few comments in the thread below, I've seen people claim that the ethical problem is: 1. All ads in general. 2. Targeted advertisement, regardless of the privacy implications. 3. Data collection for targeted advertisement. 4. Data collection for anything. 5. Whether or not users consent to all of the above. So I don't really think it is fair for anybody to insist that there is a single agreed up…

Yes there is, because none of what you mentioned is “the problem”, the problem is that all these practices are deliberately put into practice without users consent, or by trying to trick users into inadvertently give consent.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#355

Post by whitepaint » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

NullPrefix wrote: post #184

whitepaint wrote: post #129

Aren't effective ads good for society? Don't they make us prosperous? Jobs are created, people get cheaper goods, many small businesses emerge?

How did you come to the conclusion that people get cheaper goods? Cost of ads has to be included in the product pricing.

Effective ads lead to better margins and easier to conduct mass production.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#356

Post by dont__panic » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

djoldman wrote: post #339

I find it interesting how ethics seems to play a large part in the discussion about ads and big tech in general on HN. Putting aside the privacy and PII concerns , it seems like there is a large contingent of HN'ers who are uncomfortable with the idea that websites/apps are addictive or manipulative or otherwise take advantage of flaws in human nature. For instance: we like shiny things with lots of colors/movement,…

Individuals absolutely have rights to do what they want, but only as far as those things don't have a negative impact on others. Pretty much the central kernel of libertarian philosophy, which, as we all know, HN loves.

But dark patterns undermine that kind of personal choice. Think of Facebook hiding the "delete my account" page so that you literally cannot navigate to it through the UI -- you need to have a link to that page. Doesn't that erode my autonomy to decide when I want to delete my account?

Similarly, software like Windows 10, my LinkedIn profile, Firefox settings, macOS/iOS options, and plenty of others that decide to conveniently forget my explicitly chosen opt-out settings when an update comes in. Hiding behind the veil of "it's hard to test every possible option during an update!" to justify pushing folks back to the happy path where those companies get to collect more data.

So I ask you: do dark patterns actually let you make "your own choices"? If I give you a multiple choice test, and you have the option to submit an "other" option on any question, but you have to mail in your text for the "other" option, jump through hoops, and I might forget to actually count your option... do you really have the choice?

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#357

Post by beloch » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

The crux of his justification for what he does is that, he argues, people wouldn't want to pay a monthly fee for services like youtube bundled with complete respect for their privacy.

First, users do not currently have that choice. Sure, you can pay for some things (e.g. youtube premium), but it does nothing for your privacy. If you buy youtube premium you'll very likely see more ads for youtube premium (if you're not already blocking ads).

Second, The real benefit of ads is that it lets small sites that might get a single one-time visit from a user monetize that visit. A blog with a trending post is not going to be able to sell micro-subscriptions to one-time users, but they can get some ad revenue. The only current alternative here is begging for donations. That takes some effort and can piss off readers.

Ironically, although Kaufman mentions that micropayments are hard, Google is one of the few companies currently situated to implement them in a way that would actually improve user privacy. e.g. If a user paid a "Premium Internet" monthly fee, Google Ads could have a flag that turns it's data collection/sharing off and replaces it with micropayments to any site that user visits that are running Google Ads.

Of course, it does seem a little bit like a mafia protection racket for a company devoted to invading user privacy and selling their data to turn around and offer to stop doing that if paid by users!

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#358

Post by pseudozach » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

wayoutthere wrote: post #107

raspyberr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I foresee micropayments being extremely common place in the future. Something like a digital wallet browser extension. And instead of paying 5p to watch a video, you will instead pay 5p to skip 3 minute ads.

People have been saying this for decades. I don’t see a way for this to happen that is both more convenient to users and not open to all manner of automated attacks that would be difficult if not impossible to track down. Ad fraud is already a huge problem, as are things like ransomware. Micropayments would just give bad actors a direct line to your wallet.

You can allow certain domains to automatically withdraw from your bitcoin wallet and set limits to how much they can withdraw. This is not a technical problem but more of a marketing/adoption one. There are very smart people working on these: https://socket.money/

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#359

Post by SirSourdough » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

chrismorgan wrote: post #213

celticninja wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that advertising in general, pre-internet, was perhaps a pain. It was unsightly to have stuff plastered all over buses, trains, any available space someone was trying to show something in your face, to get their brands name in your eyeline. Now they are still doing that, but they have compounded the awfulness, because now they track where you are visiting and push more of those ads in your eyeline. Switched d…

I’m only 29, but the impression I have received from my youth, from parental and grandparental anecdotes, and from photographic records is that offline advertising in at least Melbourne, Australia is worse than it was, with a key tipping period being somewhere around 15 years ago. As the most significant example, public transport vehicles and locations had no-to-minimal advertising 20 years ago; now they have extensi…

It wouldn’t surprise me if the pervasiveness of online advertising creeping in at the fringes of our attention normalized an increase in the amount of ads that do this in the physical world.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#360

Post by zepto » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #29

The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I will offer a contrarian opinion as a user whose salary does not depend on advertising: the advertising model for using Google search and watching Youtube videos works better for me as a consumer . The alternati…

> I've been using Google Search for over 20 years for free which is pretty amazing. Would I rather replay history and pay ~$120 every year (~$2400 ?) to search for web articles? No

I would absolutely pay that.

Search is incredibly valuable and has deteriorated as has the web as a whole largely because of ads and this terrible business model.

It’s not even slightly ‘free’, your attention is being wasted on stuff that other people are paying for you to see.

I value that at way more than $120 per year.