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Why I Work on Ads

jefftk.com

101–110 of 882 posts

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#101
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right - but I find that strange. Most of us are not angry about the pay model for groceries or haircuts. A smaller - but still large - fraction of us are okay paying for other zero-marginal-cost goods like software as well. I wonder why we are so attached to free content online. Maybe because of the historical television model that's been mentally transferred to the internet?

Its just the fact that people are used to free content, so the idea of paying for it is foreign. If groceries used to be free, but suddenly cost money, people would riot.

That's absurd. People need groceries. If the National Enquirer went to a paid subscription model or disappeared entirely nobody would riot.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#102
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I don't think that's why people are downvoting. Speaking for myself, it's because his analysis focuses only on the benefits of ads, and conveniently ignores the actual ethical problems ( e.g. large-scale collect…

> ignores the actual ethical problems (e.g. large-scale collection of personal information) I find it ironic to see this brought up as the first example of problems, when this is exactly what Google's FLoC intends to solve. The same FLoC that has so vocally been rejected by HN recently.

People on HN usually aren’t fans of FLoC precisely because it doesn’t solve that problem, in addition to creating new ones (see https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/03/googles-floc-terrible-...).

I don’t see irony there!

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#103
Ads are fine. I don't like them, but they are fine. Targeted ads are fine too. I don't like them either, but they are fine.

The privacy invading tactics used to drive those targeted ads are not fine. They are abusive, manipulative, and covert. I am not in Europe, so perhaps I'm bias, but I also don't see regulation of the data collection industry via the GDPR as improving the situation much. It seems to have just moved the goal posts for being more manipulative to gain permission. From my totally outsider point-of-view it seems the only way to effectively limit this privacy-invading data collection is to regulate how the data can be used vs. the collection itself. Heavily regulating the ad targeting itself vs. the data collection would mean even if you did collect the data, it loses its value to the advertisers. This also allows more legitimate data collection such as error reporting to continue as-is without the burden of extra regulation.

Anyways, that is my point of view on it. I would be interested to hear other's opinions on it, perhaps from those in industry.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#104
post #18

1. Good points. There is no better alternative available. 2. There are worst jobs to have like working for the auto industry. 3. He's definitely a better person than I am with better values. Who gives 50% earned to charity?

>>Who gives 50% earned to charity?

Perhaps some. But I'm sure they don't brag to the world about it.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#105
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers building unethical things is wildly different than lawyers defending rapists, because a lawyer defending a rapist is behaving ethically according to their career path. Software engineers agreeing to build awful shit is more like mechanical engineers building weapons. They should know what they are doing is going to cause harm and if they choose to do it anyways I have no issue calling them unethical.

The lawyer's defense is "by playing devil's advocate, I make the protection of the law more robust for everyone". A closer equivalent would be a system where every organization had white-hat hackers.

The lawyer's defense is that, in any decent justice system, people have a right to a legal council and are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Even if they have been declared guilty of a crime in the past they might be innocent of this one and still have a right to council.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#106
post #29

The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I will offer a contrarian opinion as a user whose salary does not depend on advertising: the advertising model for using Google search and watching Youtube videos works better for me as a consumer . The alternati…

As someone who has worked in ads in the past, this is exactly what it sounds like.

In advertising, context matters. Ads when you’re in discovery mode looking for things to consume? Great, ads are usually unobtrusive in that context. But there are only so many discovery scenarios but lots of ad money to be made.

Advertising is a zero-sum game to dominate the human attention span. This has negative effects on our social lives and mental health. Is saving a few dollars a month worth the societal impact that constant advertising entails? In my opinion this constant barrage of ads is a big part of why we as a society can disagree about basic facts about the world: we’ve been conditioned to consume media that is promoted by virtue of its ability to draw eyeballs through being controversial / shocking, rather than the veracity or value of the information. Ads create a perverse incentive for publishers to operate at the edge of truth because those stories / media get more views.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#107
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outcry would be huge if everything went to a pay model.

I foresee micropayments being extremely common place in the future. Something like a digital wallet browser extension. And instead of paying 5p to watch a video, you will instead pay 5p to skip 3 minute ads.

People have been saying this for decades. I don’t see a way for this to happen that is both more convenient to users and not open to all manner of automated attacks that would be difficult if not impossible to track down.

Ad fraud is already a huge problem, as are things like ransomware. Micropayments would just give bad actors a direct line to your wallet.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#108
I invented 'antiad'.

I see an annoying ad in public space? I might get in contact with them to complain about that ad.

I think it is just fair to tell someone my honest opinion as soon as they take the time and effort to target me.

I'm totally lost on why we support generic unrelevant ads in public spaces. It makes our cities ugly.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#109
post #29

The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I will offer a contrarian opinion as a user whose salary does not depend on advertising: the advertising model for using Google search and watching Youtube videos works better for me as a consumer . The alternati…

> all more user hostile for my use cases

Why are these user-hostile? I see very little friction to any of them - $10/year YT subscription disappears into the background (that's, what, two moderately expensive coffee drinks? if you spend just a single day watching educational content, the obtained value will easily exceed $10), per-search microtransactions would be so cheap that you could just turn on the "always transparently pay for this" feature, and any YouTube video of reasonable size that is worth watching is definitely worth spending the few seconds of time to assess and then click the "donate to get access" button.

What, you're saying that these things don't exist? Then that's a problem with currently available implementations of microtransactions, not the concept of microtransactions itself.

It's easy, from a technical perspective, to design a low-friction microtransaction system.

> Would I rather replay history and pay ~$120 every year (~$2400 ?) to search for web articles?

That's a price problem, not a pricing model problem. Microtransactions/subscriptions are irrelevant - that price is so far above the actual cost of your Google searches that the equivalent in terms of the current model (you pay with your data) is that Google demands your SSN in order for you to search - and the results in both cases will be the same: users will use a different product.

Edit: Because this comment has gotten strawmanned in the same way repeatedly: I did not say that the ad-funded model should go away, nor do I believe that - my comment was purely a response to the idea that microtransactions are infeasible, and nobody carefully reading it would think otherwise.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#110
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lawyer's defense is "by playing devil's advocate, I make the protection of the law more robust for everyone". A closer equivalent would be a system where every organization had white-hat hackers.

The lawyer's defense is that, in any decent justice system, people have a right to a legal council and are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Even if they have been declared guilty of a crime in the past they might be innocent of this one and still have a right to council.

I think that amounts to the same thing; the lawyer thinks "This $#@& is guilty as sin, but the court has to prove it." Few professions have a regular test of that kind.
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