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Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

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Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#11

Post by mustafa_pasi »

contravariant wrote: post #8
dudul wrote: post #5

Probably a technicality but slavery was never authorized in mainland France. It was only in the colonies. I know it didn't change anything for those who were enslaved, but it may also be good to remember that it was a time when all major powers used slaves, and France made a point of never allowing it in the actual country.

Did any of the European countries at the time allow slavery in their own borders? I don't think France is special in that regard.

The Knights Hospitaller were at the time occupying Malta, and they were basically pirates who raided Muslim (and sometimes Christian) merchant ships. They were still enslaving people and engaging in slave trade. They got kicked out by Napoleon on his way to Egypt, and in the process he abolished slavery on the island.

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#13

Post by batmansmk »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #2

Napoleon was a bloody dictator, he shouldn't be celebrated by someone supposed to represent the republic like Macron. Did he celebrate the first french republic in September? No, because he is from/married into the old french bourgeoisie, that's who he represents and works for given his terrible record.

What you say about Napoleon's political ambition is true. But talking about Napoleon only as a dictator is not understanding the historical context. The Republic was also very bloody; the times were bloody, not just under the rule of the corsican.

Isaac Newton dealt in slaves, Euler worked directly under the order of a bloody dictator... yet we can still talk and study their life, right?

Remember, we will all look terrible in 200 years from now, maybe because we use gasoline, or eat meat, or buy products made by children, or our capitalism, or our positino towards sex change or racial equality or whatever will shock people's future ethics and morale value. Maybe when I went shopping this morning I committed 15 cardinal sins of the future.

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#14

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

watwut wrote: post #10
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was a time when all major powers used slaves This is really key here. There's a trend to hold people of the past up to standards of the present, but the world was extremely different then. Before the advent of farming machines and nitrogen fixation, labor dictated the power of a nation, labor relations and unions weren't a big thing, and a huge majority of the population worked in agriculture. Because there were…

Napoleon reinstated it in 1802 and it was abolished in 1848. There were only 46 years in between. The state bought the slaves and then freed them. That is not a question of change within centuries, that is various people at that time making active decision to keep or abolish slavery.

None of what I stated contradicts what you said. But limited resource availability and geopolitical instability made that political decision to remove slavery much more difficult than it is today.

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#15

Post by mc32 »

contravariant wrote: post #8
dudul wrote: post #5

Probably a technicality but slavery was never authorized in mainland France. It was only in the colonies. I know it didn't change anything for those who were enslaved, but it may also be good to remember that it was a time when all major powers used slaves, and France made a point of never allowing it in the actual country.

Did any of the European countries at the time allow slavery in their own borders? I don't think France is special in that regard.

Czarist Russia had what amounted to slaves -serfs, who had very few rights and were bound to their lords.

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#16

Post by scythe »

dudul wrote: post #5

Probably a technicality but slavery was never authorized in mainland France. It was only in the colonies. I know it didn't change anything for those who were enslaved, but it may also be good to remember that it was a time when all major powers used slaves, and France made a point of never allowing it in the actual country.

Well, not never.

Slavery absolutely existed in mainland France under the Romans. The coronation of Charlemagne made the popes feel empowered to order Christians to stop enslaving other Christians or selling the latter outside Europe. Believe it or not, Venetian slave traders used to kidnap civilians in Rome and sell them to the Arabs. The growing influence of the papacy lead to the gradual replacement of chattel slavery by serfdom around the tenth century. Finally, in 1315, bonded labor was abolished in France by Louis X, proclaiming that "France means freedom".

A similar process transpired in England, with slavery abolished by William the Conqueror and serfdom dying out in the fifteenth century as courts refused to enforce the contracts.

Unfortunately, all of this brilliant progress was undone in a desperate Europe facing a massive Ottoman invasion at the dawn of American colonization which led Popes and Emperors to authorize horrific measures, that ultimately corrupted the European conscience and led to a new era of slavery and genocide.

The Ottomans cannot carry all the blame, but remembering that "we" (qua the West) built our system of racism from a position of weakness may help persuade some people to let it go away. I think. Who knows?

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#17

Post by eugeneagyeman »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #6
dudul wrote: post #5

Probably a technicality but slavery was never authorized in mainland France. It was only in the colonies. I know it didn't change anything for those who were enslaved, but it may also be good to remember that it was a time when all major powers used slaves, and France made a point of never allowing it in the actual country.

> it was a time when all major powers used slaves This is really key here. There's a trend to hold people of the past up to standards of the present, but the world was extremely different then. Before the advent of farming machines and nitrogen fixation, labor dictated the power of a nation, labor relations and unions weren't a big thing, and a huge majority of the population worked in agriculture. Because there were…

Sorry but this is not helpful.

Slavery was wrong then and it is wrong now. societal consensus cannot be excused because it was in the past.

Highlighted and rightfully acknowledged but slavery cannot be simplified to just forced labour when rape, murder and unethical experimentation was also performed. I think it’s incorrect to assume that this should not be criticised with the standards of today as to do so is to ignore that it is a very human issue to value the life of another so poorly and assume we were all barbarians only 300-400 years ago which is not the case.

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#18

Post by paleotrope »

chrisseaton wrote: post #9
watwut wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminder that "bourgeoisie" means "the middle class". Most of us here on HN are bourgeoisie or higher. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being from the middle class. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with government people being middle class either, in an ideal economy, bourgeoisie is the most common kind of citizen.

The French overthrew and executed much of their upper class, so their middle class became the elite there, and that's why the term is used in that way. Compared to the UK where there is still an upper class.

That is such a simplification of the actual history as to be basically meaningless.

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#19

Post by Renaud »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #2

Napoleon was a bloody dictator, he shouldn't be celebrated by someone supposed to represent the republic like Macron. Did he celebrate the first french republic in September? No, because he is from/married into the old french bourgeoisie, that's who he represents and works for given his terrible record.

The legacy of Napoleon is much more complex than that. Want it or not, he's both a terrible conqueror animated by a thirst for power at all cost and also a builder of modern institutions still in use today.

The same things could be said of most kings, queens and emperors of Europe across the ages. Reigns without mercy, enslaving and conquering, abusing and torturing, yet they cemented the future and a good portion of the institutions they set up are still in use today in one form or another. And yet people still honour their memory and their legacy.

Napoleon's reign caught up because the state was in trouble at the end of the XVIII century (insecurity, lack of funds, a general state of disarray). The rapid change in political structure -with all its instabilities- after the Revolution made (some) people yearn for stability. And thus Napoleon seized power through a coup.

And that's how the country got governed by a dictator, who proclaimed himself Emperor and started to chip away at people's freedoms in the name of stability.

A somewhat still-current cautionary tale...

Re: Remembering that Napoleon reinstated slavery in France

#20

Post by kiliantics »

watwut wrote: post #7
throw_m239339 wrote: post #2

Napoleon was a bloody dictator, he shouldn't be celebrated by someone supposed to represent the republic like Macron. Did he celebrate the first french republic in September? No, because he is from/married into the old french bourgeoisie, that's who he represents and works for given his terrible record.

Reminder that "bourgeoisie" means "the middle class". Most of us here on HN are bourgeoisie or higher. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being from the middle class. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with government people being middle class either, in an ideal economy, bourgeoisie is the most common kind of citizen.

That's one definition. Marx defines it specifically as the class of people who own the means of production.
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