How Basecamp Blew Up • Hacker News Board

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#881

Post by cbsmith » Thu, May 06, 2021, 2:59 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #404

cbsmith wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's always funny to me is this phenomenon generally has nothing to do with the actual people involved. It's just a story telling phenomenon. None of the people who know these thought leaders imbue them with qualities they don't have.

That does not seem correct to me. It’s not a “story telling phenomenon” that DHH and Jason Fried are perceived as industry thought leaders, it’s the result of both repeated actions on their part, plus some luck. Those two didn’t accidentally end up in the public conversation, they wrote five books about working, plus god knows how many blog posts, talks, and more. That is explicitly attention seeking behavior, and it…

I don't think choosing to share your thoughts/critiques on what has & hasn't worked for you in industry connotes any kind of assumptions about being a flawless leader. One can have some interesting thoughts worth sharing without being some idealized technical leader. Hell, I'd argue a lot of the thoughts that were shared betrayed some points of concern.

There's a LOT of projection that has gone here.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#882

Post by vxNsr » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:28 AM UTC

Huggernaut wrote: post #862

vxNsr wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the comparison is coming from the fact that the GP is describing a bad situation he’s in and the response is essentially “you deserve it” and “think of the starving children in Africa”. My point is that sort of thinking creates a less humane society.

Right, I don't really agree with your interpretation, though I can understand how you might read it that way. As I wrote above, I read it as "take this as a learning opportunity to empathise with others", which I would think leads to a _more_ humane society.

Telling someone how to "empathize" is probably the most condescending thing that "progressives" tell others to do.

Somehow it only comes out when the person preaching it feels extreme pity for the person in need of "empathy" and most importantly the preacher is the only one who really understands how to give that empathy, no one else is able to reach their level of enlightenment. Of course this creates a problem when two such preachers are in the same room...

Additionally, most of the time the pitied person doesn't want your pity or empathy they just want to live their life and are usually pretty happy until you come along and start telling them they need empathy and how bad their life really is.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#883

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

andrewmd5 wrote: post #799

JPKab wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you really don't get it. At my company that I was formally employed at before moving on to my current startup, we had a minority of employees very aggressively and vocally demanding that the CEO issue an anti-racism statement after the George Floyd murder. A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and al…

> I rarely see talented developers doing this because they're too busy working. I love the privilege on display here. You can ignore racial inequality issues because "they are too distracting," meanwhile I have to wake up each morning, read yet another one of my brothers and sisters has been killed by police, and I still have to run my business. Your mediocrity exist in your complacently to the status-quo. On a daily…

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#884

Post by dukes82 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:52 AM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #704

prepend wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not irrational, but incorrect. I’d like to see whatever evidence means silence is a form of endorsement. It’s hard to know, but I have one data point in my own self in that I really don’t talk much about anything and certainly don’t endorse white supremacy and I actively live my life fighting inequity. Someone saying that I endorse something because I don’t speak about it is incorrect as I know myself better…

I am not talking about silence at all times, but specifically silence at times when someone is given the opportunity to speak up about an issue and chooses not to.

Perhaps the increasing prevalence of "opportunities" to denounce things and endorse political beliefs had something to do with the decision to move away from politics in the office. If Thea opportunities can be freely presented at any time and demand a positive response or invite condemnation, surely you can see how this might be considered wasteful from a business point of view.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#885

Post by antpol » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:53 AM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #734

ramraj07 wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re missing a crucial bit that changes everything: one of the earliest employees is ostensibly a very, very right leaning person who made super questionable comments unprompted in the townhall, and refused to acknowledge racism as a concept could exist in companies. And one of the founders just couldn’t say anything that would have helped in that moment.

I'm a pretty left leaning person and I mostly agree with the things he's quoted as saying in this article. I hugely disagree with the way that white supremacism has had it's definition widened within certain circles and how those circles are now attempting to push that definition into wider usage through the type of bullying that's on display in this very article. For most people white supremacism conjures up images…

If you start calling modern social justice issues with a term without that historical "baggage", then it would quickly be dismissed as [first world problem](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=First%20Worl...)

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#886

Post by wmoxam » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #578

wmoxam wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So jokes that desensitize people to hatred is cool?

Oh come on, that is so not what I said. If only jokes were made the genocide wouldn't have happened. The jokes weren't the cause of anything, they were just a symptom/result of a widespread hate campaign that certainly didn't start with jokes. Context and details matter a lot. A joke about "niggaz in da hood" by a white person is very inappropriate and insensitive, but it's not the same as some joke where the punchli…

> If only jokes were made the genocide wouldn't have happened

Well no shit. But it did happen, and there's plenty of proof that 'jokes' contributed to the culture that made genocide possible

> A joke about "niggaz in da hood" by a white person is very inappropriate and insensitive, but it's not the same as some joke where the punchline is that "niggaz too lazy to work" or whatnot

You really don't think that the first desensitizes some to the point that they think the 2nd is acceptable?? This is what the pyramid is about.

> This is essentially the same argument as {comics,music,TV,films,games} causes {Satanism,murder,drug use,what-have-you}.

No it's not.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#887

Post by andrewmd5 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #833

andrewmd5 wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I rarely see talented developers doing this because they're too busy working. I love the privilege on display here. You can ignore racial inequality issues because "they are too distracting," meanwhile I have to wake up each morning, read yet another one of my brothers and sisters has been killed by police, and I still have to run my business. Your mediocrity exist in your complacently to the status-quo. On a daily…

You have no idea how much software I ship, but like your ideology, you make assertions without data. You act as if the only people who are killed by police are "one of my brothers and sisters". Let's unpack that, shall we? https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ Roughly 3/4 of people killed by police in the US are not one of your "brothers and sisters" if by "brothers and sisters" you are referring to humans who share you…

See, all you have to do is push people who claim to want an apolitical workspace just a little to get their real views to surface.

Enjoy your sad, weird life https://andrew.im/

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#888

Post by joshuamorton » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:35 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #833

andrewmd5 wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I rarely see talented developers doing this because they're too busy working. I love the privilege on display here. You can ignore racial inequality issues because "they are too distracting," meanwhile I have to wake up each morning, read yet another one of my brothers and sisters has been killed by police, and I still have to run my business. Your mediocrity exist in your complacently to the status-quo. On a daily…

You have no idea how much software I ship, but like your ideology, you make assertions without data. You act as if the only people who are killed by police are "one of my brothers and sisters". Let's unpack that, shall we? https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ Roughly 3/4 of people killed by police in the US are not one of your "brothers and sisters" if by "brothers and sisters" you are referring to humans who share you…

> Where were you and BLM?

https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/mesa-rally-...

Please don't lie and spread hateful rhetoric like the idea that BLM is "bigoted" (against whom, the police?). BLM activists actually were involved in a lot of the Daniel Shaver activism. It is a travesty that the cop that killed him wasn't held accountable, but trying to blame the BLM movement for that when then, and now, they're actively trying to make changes to that system, in ways that are helpful to people of all races, makes me think you're being driven by an irrational hate and fear of the BLM movement.

> ethnocentrism

This word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. "Ethnocentrism" is an antonym of cultural relativism, which I guess could be seen as a sort of supremacy ideology, but not in the way you seem to be using it.

> Based on the logic of this movement created by people who don't understand basic stats, the discrepancy between men and women must mean that police are systemically sexist against men, right? Because only the outcome matters, and all explanations except bigotry must be ignored.

Certainly there are ways that society fails men, yes. It frames them as more violent and dangerous, and because of this I would indeed expect that (and the stats back up) that men are killed, by police disproportionately compared to women, basically no matter how you measure.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#889

Post by joshuamorton » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

t0mbstone wrote: post #835

thrownaway564 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truth. from the "guidance" page: "More inclusive: Spouses/partners Less inclusive: Wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends"

But isn't your restriction of my language and how I refer to the people I love pretty much the opposite of "inclusion"? What if my wife would prefer if I referred to her as my "wife" instead of as a generic, faceless "partner"? By insisting that I refer to her as a genderless "partner", you are failing to respect her chosen pronoun.

This is almost certainly for product or marketing materials, and not for you talking about your personal relationships. That is Okta should not talk about building a security tool for you and your wife to use, but instead for you and your partner to use.

Because I have no clue who your partner is (or really if you have one) so I shouldn't assume until I have that information. Note that the words in the example are all plural, presumably referring to multiple other peoples' partners.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#890

Post by arp242 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

wmoxam wrote: post #886

arp242 wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, that is so not what I said. If only jokes were made the genocide wouldn't have happened. The jokes weren't the cause of anything, they were just a symptom/result of a widespread hate campaign that certainly didn't start with jokes. Context and details matter a lot. A joke about "niggaz in da hood" by a white person is very inappropriate and insensitive, but it's not the same as some joke where the punchli…

> If only jokes were made the genocide wouldn't have happened Well no shit. But it did happen, and there's plenty of proof that 'jokes' contributed to the culture that made genocide possible > A joke about "niggaz in da hood" by a white person is very inappropriate and insensitive, but it's not the same as some joke where the punchline is that "niggaz too lazy to work" or whatnot You really don't think that the first…

> You really don't think that the first desensitizes some to the point that they think the 2nd is acceptable??

No, why should it? It seems to me that the difference is extremely clear for everyone. Is there any good argument beyond "but it obviously does!" – or even better, research – which demonstrates that it does?

You are just refuting what I'm saying without any actual arguments.