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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#831

Post by lp0_on_fire »

MattRix wrote: post #827
lp0_on_fire wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All civilized people condemn ethnic/racial supremacists so frankly if someone asks me if I denounce white supremacy I'm going to ignore it. My choice not to dignify that question with a response is not an indication that I endorse white supremacists any more than my choice not to dignify a question like "do you believe the earth is round" indicates my belief that the planet is flat.

The word “civilized” is doing a lot of heavy lifting for you there. White supremacy is still very real in America and throughout the rest of the world. The idea that you’d brush off someone asking about white supremacy in the same way as a flat earth denier is absurd, and says more about your own position of priviledge.

And there it is: because I refuse to repeat the words that the woke orthodoxy demands on command you accuse me of "privilege" despite knowing nothing about me or my belief system.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#832

Post by jarek83 »

igneo676 wrote: post #756
jarek83 wrote: post #675

I'm among those with mixed feelings. - list of funny names that is kept in some persistent form and circulates the company with full acknowledgment of the head people: Childish and extremely unprofessional, but still a typical mistake rather than a colossal disaster; - politics and racism issue: looks like typical misunderstanding but on a very fragile subjects. Very easy to get into drama scenarios with this mix. Ve…

Ultimately, no, they're not "bad guys" in the sense that they're irredeemably evil. Unfortunately, the current situation certainly paints them in the "extremely foolish or downright spiteful" territory Once a harmful set of actions comes to light, it's your job as the leadership team to: 1. Apologize 2. Correct the wrong 3. Allow your employees the space to process and heal a. Note: People are messy. Especially hurt…

Are you past or present employee? If so, then you probably know better, but I can only response to what I know, and I was never related to Basecamp.

What you say is correct in really bad situations. Thing is, that I have trouble to see real issue in what has happened here. It somehow feels surreal that DHH and Jason were able to fool us all for years, and now it seems that they are being accused of almost being hostile to their employees. Everything arose around this darn name list. How this ended up with using words of "white supremacy" is beyond me, and genuinely feels as words misunderstanding or misuse. In a team with non-natives, it is extremely easy to have such misunderstandings. But it is also easy to not spot that misunderstanding quickly. And that someone misunderstood something is not a reason to apologize I believe. Also the way they tried to handle the situation, seems to me like they were stunned by it and it took them off guard, because they are probably not racists guys, and instead they are fully and deeply against such people. That's why further developments seem more random than professional or done on purpose.

I just had a situation in my team where we had a junior guy that we wanted to train. He was very hesitant to learn, he always knew better, and any PR feedback ended always with 2 hours-long calls, trying to explain him the comments there. He was always told that we want to get feedback from him, that he always will be listened and he was always assuring us that he is fine, that he finally understood the feedback and all. Guess what - today he told me that he leaves and the main reason was that he could never understand the PR and that he never could agree with it, and that he always felt that he can't say word and that he has to obey..... I'm feeling confused and cheated all day. I went far and beyond to make him feel as comfortable as possible, it took many overtime hours to stay with him to discuss stuff and then go back to do my tasks. I'm speechless right now, and trying to not loose my self-confidence as I literally don't know what I've done wrong.

I feel that their situation might be somewhat similar now:

1. Apologize - but maybe they don't see what for?

2. Correct the wrong - but what was wrong?

3. Allow the space for employees - what kind of space? How are they not allowed for that already? Do you mean doing some sessions and commit weeks to try to solve people's own issues?

4. Get employees back on board - ok they messed up with this one by posting the policy change publicly.

Not sure it was noticed, but DHH hasn't tweeted once in May. I obviously don't know the reason, but maybe, just maybe, he is trying to put all the pieces together to at least have an idea what just happened?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#833

Post by JPKab »

andrewmd5 wrote: post #799
JPKab wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you really don't get it. At my company that I was formally employed at before moving on to my current startup, we had a minority of employees very aggressively and vocally demanding that the CEO issue an anti-racism statement after the George Floyd murder. A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and al…

> I rarely see talented developers doing this because they're too busy working. I love the privilege on display here. You can ignore racial inequality issues because "they are too distracting," meanwhile I have to wake up each morning, read yet another one of my brothers and sisters has been killed by police, and I still have to run my business. Your mediocrity exist in your complacently to the status-quo. On a daily…

You have no idea how much software I ship, but like your ideology, you make assertions without data.

You act as if the only people who are killed by police are "one of my brothers and sisters".

Let's unpack that, shall we?

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Roughly 3/4 of people killed by police in the US are not one of your "brothers and sisters" if by "brothers and sisters" you are referring to humans who share your melanin content and location of ancestral origin (of course all humans are descended from African humans, but to suit the purposes of demagogues, we can ignore that and just stop at the arbitrary point in lineage where we can maximize division to reap power).

As you read this, it is extremely likely that you cant name a single one of the non-black people killed by police last year, can you? Of course not. Or even in the last 5 years, can you? There are 3 times as many of these people as the group you are ethnocentrically focused on.

Let's also talk about the "sisters" aspect. Statistically, women killed by police are minimal. The referenced website, run by activists, removed the filter for women, but you can download the data yourself to see that it's a minimal amount.

Based on the logic of this movement created by people who don't understand basic stats, the discrepancy between men and women must mean that police are systemically sexist against men, right? Because only the outcome matters, and all explanations except bigotry must be ignored.

A big difference these days is that when a non-black person is wrongfully shot by police, the complete lack of national media coverage allows the police to get off scot free.

See Daniel Shaver, who was recorded on camera being executed, unarmed in his underwear, begging for his life, by a psycho cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv_eyGw4s3w

Unlike Chauvin, said psycho cop was exonerated and dismissed with a full pension, as if he honorable retired. Where were you and BLM? Nowhere, because it's a bigoted, ethnocentric movement designed to divide rather than unite.

You should ask yourself why you used the phrase "brothers and sisters" about people who share your ethnnicity, and why you don't use it for all humans, like I do. Ask yourself if you've been sucked into the precursor to pure racism, ethnocentrism. Ask yourself if you've allowed yourself to be misinformed by media designed to monetize your confirmation bias, rather than inform you.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#834

Post by t0mbstone »

shagie wrote: post #803
wyclif wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often see that peculiar speech pattern here on HN! It's like they're afraid to say 'wife' out of fear of offending the woke mob. The same people who are OK with work being a constant struggle seminar.

I use "sibling" rather than "brother" or "sister" and "parent" rather than "mother" or "father" to reduce information leakage. "Partner" could find the same use. This isn't any woke thing - its just a "don't reveal information that isn't necessary."

Ah, yes. Let's just obfuscate every humanizing aspect of our lives to ensure we are seen as a replaceable cogs in the money making machine instead of real people with feelings.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#835

Post by t0mbstone »

thrownaway564 wrote: post #368
FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> husband Yup. Pro tip: If you're at a SV-influenced company and you find yourself talking about your personal life, don't say "husband," "wife," "boyfriend," or "girlfriend;" say "partner." That signals that you're an Ally rather than an Enemy. You'll notice other weird speech patterns too. Pay attention to them; they're meaningful.

Truth. from the "guidance" page: "More inclusive: Spouses/partners Less inclusive: Wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends"

But isn't your restriction of my language and how I refer to the people I love pretty much the opposite of "inclusion"?

What if my wife would prefer if I referred to her as my "wife" instead of as a generic, faceless "partner"? By insisting that I refer to her as a genderless "partner", you are failing to respect her chosen pronoun.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#836

Post by comte7092 »

throwaway789256 wrote: post #210
Tainnor wrote: post #124

Honestly, in this story everyone looks like a big child. I would maybe be more sympathetic to DHH if it wasn't the guy who was so opinionated he pushed through Rails features that everyone else disliked or co-wrote several books on company culture that are glorified ads for basecamp (although "it doesn't have to be crazy at work" is still a thought-provoking read, at least in part). I can only imagine that he might b…

This dynamic is playing out in thousands of companies and startups across the US. Many people in the US, the woke, have redefined "white supremacy" and "racism" to mean most inequalities and behavior that they don't like: They do not accept non-racist environments, only anti-racist ones. They do not accept that businesses be politically neutral. Businesses must take political stances internally and publicly. To do an…

Your assertions don’t really stack up with the known facts of the situation.

It seems that there was at the very least one instance of behavior that employees perceived as outwardly racist (the names list) and were seeking to address issues surrounding that behavior.

On the outside, it’s hard to know much more about the details, but it also would appear that employees took issue with other somewhat minor slights that may have amounted to a pattern of behavior, in particular relating to someone with a lot of authority at base camp, who was then given a pass under the guise of political differences.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#837

Post by PeterStuer »

When idiologues try take sidetrack your company, unfortunately there is no other way but to act decisive and fast before the cancer spreads.

There is no reasoning with idiologues as reason does not enter into dogmatic rhetoric.

Act decisive as it will only get worse, and never apologize.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#838

Post by throwaway789256 »

andrewmd5 wrote: post #799
JPKab wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you really don't get it. At my company that I was formally employed at before moving on to my current startup, we had a minority of employees very aggressively and vocally demanding that the CEO issue an anti-racism statement after the George Floyd murder. A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and al…

> I rarely see talented developers doing this because they're too busy working. I love the privilege on display here. You can ignore racial inequality issues because "they are too distracting," meanwhile I have to wake up each morning, read yet another one of my brothers and sisters has been killed by police, and I still have to run my business. Your mediocrity exist in your complacently to the status-quo. On a daily…

What do you want businesses to do? Should they all commit meaningful resources and capital to social justice?

What about climate change? Should they also commit meaningful capital and resources to that?

How should they balance those with other priorities, like their fiduciary duty to their shareholders?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#839

Post by dang »

MattRix wrote: post #828
dang wrote: post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't cross into personal attack. You can make your substantive points without swipes like that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

There is no personal attack here, I am referring to anyone who uses “cancel culture” as a bad thing.

Using the phrase "someone like you" in a negative way in an argument on a charged, divisive topic counts as crossing into personal attack. Please make your substantive points without that.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#840

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

anm89 wrote: post #830
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Promoting, not referencing. Whether I "like" it is irrelevant, it has a very specific political viewpoint. Your "explanation" is entirely misdirection.

Yes, the well known unforgivable crime of referencing that a publication with "a very specific political viewpoint" exists. I think this is a pretty good basis for upending someone's career.

Basecamp certainly seems to think so, but not that particular viewpoint. Funny, that. Again, your "explanation" is not good faith.
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