How Basecamp Blew Up • Hacker News Board

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#641

Post by charlesu » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:14 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #541

etchalon wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a replacement for the term "African American", which is the best way to think of it and why it's capitalized. A good number of major publications have posted explanations for the editorial change: https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-cultures-race-and-e... https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/05/insider/capitalized-black...

Respectfully, I view these explanations as a retcon. Race is a social construct and the reason these newspapers chose not to capitalize white was because it's historically been capitalized by white nationalists. It's also historically been capitalized by black nationalists. That's what ethno-fascists do. They reduce reality down to singular dimensions and obsess about them as they tell everyone to blame their problem…

Black when capitalized doesn’t refer to a race. It refers to an ethnicity. It’s not a retcon to capitalize ethnicities. We’ve been capitalizing ethnicities for a while now.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#642

Post by zackees » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:16 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #593

gustavo-fring wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and the first Jews and African-Americans that gained positions in government gained them as Republicans. Prior to the Southern strategy, the democratic party was the party of Jim Crow and lynchings and backwards ass race hatred. But they, like people, changed. It really says nothing about the potential of the parties today. If you are so ideological that you can't see that calling people you just met racists is a…

Except that the GOP is still cynically appealing to racism. The parties in their modern form began after their realignment with the civil rights movement. They haven't fundamentally changed since the sixties. Yes, I agree it doesn't persuade anyone to call them names. I don't excuse that behavior. But again, it isn't wrong to say that the GOP uses racism to this day to win votes.

Then any mainstream media outlet and count how many tiles they talk about racial relations and how it’s dividing America. The fact that the left believes it’s anti racist demonstrates the power of mainstream media propaganda.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#643

Post by _y5hn » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:22 AM UTC

ertian wrote: post #582

newacct583 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? It's a loaded question, with no right answer. According to the article, the same speaker claimed that there was a culture of white supremacy at the company. There were demands to stop 'protecting' an exec who had expressed conservative views in the past. Do you now or have you ever had sympathy for the positions of the communist party? Well, do I mean the position that anybody…

It's especially troublesome for a wife-beater that wants to stay in power.

People in power do all sorts of stuff, to stay in power and keep others down.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#644

Post by _y5hn » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:26 AM UTC

Poiesis wrote: post #587

wvenable wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I'm old and never in my life have I ever been asked to denounce white supremacy. If someone asked me to denounce it, I'd be insulted that they asked. There's some serious implications behind asking someone that question that I hope would never apply to me.

I think people's defensiveness can get in the way of empathy. I would be somewhat dismayed if someone asked me to denounce white supremacy, because I would hope that it would be obvious that I abhor white supremacy. I don't think I'd be insulted, though--and certainly not to the level of refusing to do any denouncing. Of course it's wrong! Hope to live in a world where it goes without saying. Until then, happy to rep…

Some people will never be happy, but will happily tear everyone down. They will never mature to grow out of resentment and forgive.

It's way harder though as long as injustice is perpetuated.

So it's nuanced.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#645

Post by JPKab » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

edoceo wrote: post #416

vimy wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://newdiscourses.com/2021/01/what-is-critical-race-theo...

thanks! I've read that and this part sticks out: ""they assume racism is present in everything and look for it “Critically” until they find it."" that doesn't seem like the scientific method to me. am I the dumb? edit: also the founder of the linked site is critical of Critical Race Theory - so maybe there is bias in this article. Whatever, I asked for a place to start - so, thanks again.

CRT is essay based, not science based. Think Foucault, not Pavlov.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#646

Post by _y5hn » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:38 AM UTC

alsetmusic wrote: post #406

didgeoridoo wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence This is just a rehash of broken-windows theory, whether its proponents know it or not. The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there. There is zero evidence behind the “pyramid of hate” — it makes a shallow kind of sense, but has no basis in the real w…

Dehumanization is a key element in tolerating mistreatment of others. Inflicting atrocities carries a psychological toll that can be lessened if the victims are seen as less deserving of compassion. Name calling is an early step in this process.

Dehumanization is part of psychopathic processes.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#647

Post by efitz » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

qtt wrote: post #588

js2 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Republican party has cynically been using race for fifty years to split the working class vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy So for someone to say they aren't Republican because they aren't racist is hyperbolic, but it isn't wrong. What is Scary Gary?

If you read that Wikipedia page, under the Scholarly debates section, the existence of a "Southern Strategy" at all is debated. Nixon never claimed to have a Southern Strategy - he was focused on a national strategy that included the South. Notably, in his 1972 election, he carried 49 states - indicating that he did indeed have an inclusive national strategy. The more likely explanation to contemporary GOP success is…

I find the idea of the “Southern Strategy” to be counter-intuitive as well as self-serving for its proponents.

First, under what circumstances would you swap political parties? This is an exceptionally rare circumstance; I don’t see how it could ever happen in any kind of significant way. People change to third parties (eg whigs to Republicans) but leftists and rightists rarely “switch sides”. Party affiliations are a big basket of beliefs, not just single issue.

It’s self serving in that the popular narrative is all the “bad” Democrats (southern racists who blocked school integration, civil rights, etc) all left for the Republican Party, leaving the Democrats racist-free. Pretty convenient.

In reality I think that there was very little party switching; racism just became politically anathema in the civil rights era (which is one of the greatest things about America) and all the OG racists - the Robert Byrds etc. - had to stop being publicly racist. This and shifting cultural norms meant that Boomers were much less racist than previous generations and Gen X even more so.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#648

Post by JPKab » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:44 AM UTC

jgwil2 wrote: post #388

JPKab wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly how it went down in one of my companies HR "listening circles" in February. The blind employee is married to a woman who immigrated to the US from Japan. He was being lectured by a young semi-useless data scientist who grew up in a wealthy suburb just outside of Dearborn. I'm totally making all of this up in your eyes because you don't like what you're hearing. Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable.

I think you have an agenda and you're shading the story to fit your narrative. I would bet that other people would describe it differently. I notice you didn't reply about the name-calling.

I disagree with name calling. And I think you are arrogant and probably young. You form an opinion and cling to it. This ideology probably suits you.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#649

Post by sol_invictus » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:44 AM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #634

duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

The context is he was responding to employee #4 who constantly quoted Breitbart on company forums (which employees brought up until Basecamp went in and erased old messages.), and the company #1 and #2 backed up the Breitbart supporter, and denied employee request to change the racist code names for outside companies. This is similar to GitHub where they fired the Jewish employee for telling people to be aware of Naz…

So the problem is not that Basecamp doesn't allow political opinions, it's just that they don't allow the right political opinions. Why am I not surprised... This whole American thought police experiment is going to end in a massive dumpster fire in the not-too-distant future.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#650

Post by jariel » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:53 AM UTC

dools wrote: post #196

jariel wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It has hints of "reverse racism" " "That's closer to the camp of "white supremacist" or at the very least, a common defense used by white supremacist." This kind of gaslighthing though. "My opponent disagrees with me and is therefore a White Supremacist, or at least close to one!" If one person says 'this org is racist because of white privilege' - it's possibly contentious, but not unreasonable to suggest that this…

It's not a matter of disagreement about 2 equally valid viewpoints, it's about one side being wrong about everything following a deliberate and calculated campaign of misinformation, and the other side pointing out how wrong they are and how dangerous their ideology is. No-one likes being told they're wrong, which is why the capitol riots happened on 6 January and Trump still got so many votes despite being an abject…

This kind of rhetoric I think might be at the root of the problem.

If you believe the company founders, in the face of being told they occupy their position 'due to privilege' is 'right about everything' then you're the problem.

Telling executives that they are 'denying racism exists' when they are actually only denying that it exists at the company is obviously straw manning.

If you're of the position that 'anyone who questions claims of racism is a white supremacist', then you're entitled to that position, but it's 'war language' that is driving a lot of irresponsible toxicity in the workplace.