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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#631

Post by charlesu »

JPKab wrote: post #232

Do what I did in February: Quit. Life's too short to waste time at a company that's forgotten it's purpose. This ideology borders on cult like. A good sign that you are dealing with an irrational ideology is non-sensical, illogical and inconsisten rules. For example, in this article, "Black" is capitalized everywhere its mentioned, and "white" isn't. There's nothing logically consistent about this, because it's a bor…

It’s common to capitalize ethnicities and Black is an ethnicity in the United States. White is considered a race. Is your issue that Black is capitalized or that white is not capitalized?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#633

Post by ashtonkem »

duxup wrote: post #467
ashtonkem wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that, no matter your political views, if a situation gets out of hand that bad over matters that aren't even really directly related to workplace concerns, something must have gone fundamentally wrong much earlier. Remember, the proximate cause here was something that directly related to what happened at work.

The funny names list? Yeah that seems to have been the trigger but I'm not sure that such a list should lead to everything described in the article. How that lead to demanding someone denounce white supremacy at a meeting seems like things have long since disconnected from the funny names list.

It turns out if you mismanage a problem, it gets worse.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#634

Post by stevenwoo »

duxup wrote: post #473
otde wrote: post #463

Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work — like a fish trying to avoid water in the ocean. The ways companies are built and maintained, the relationship between employers and employees, workplace requirements and benefits — all of these are shaped by and and built from political systems, to say nothing of how politics surrounding a person’s identity might affect their worldview. You’re never going to…

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

The context is he was responding to employee #4 who constantly quoted Breitbart on company forums (which employees brought up until Basecamp went in and erased old messages.), and the company #1 and #2 backed up the Breitbart supporter, and denied employee request to change the racist code names for outside companies. This is similar to GitHub where they fired the Jewish employee for telling people to be aware of Nazi sympathizers on January 6 because using the word Nazi offended some “apolitical” employee who objected to using the word Nazi to describe Nazis.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#635

Post by jhanschoo »

newacct583 wrote: post #527
treeman79 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to quit a company last year due to bigotry. Constant bashing of white men on company calls. Exceptions if you were openly non straight. They also loved talking about how inclusive they were. Constant mocking of customer base, who was mostly traditional white people. I figure out quick I was hired only because they were desperate for someone with experience. Which sadly meant hiring an undesirable. At some point i…

You lead with an invocation of bigotry. You give some examples. You close with a baldly transphobic sneer. Really?

If it is a reasonable conclusion from the way the person's workplace is structured, and the way their coworkers judge their coworkers, I don't see how it reflects the person's purported transphobia, but rather the bigotry of their coworkers.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#636

Post by arp242 »

JPKab wrote: post #580
jjeaff wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up middle class, rural, and southern. So I don't have all the privileges in the world. But at the same time, I know that the privilege I lack is not because I am white. That is why when someone makes a negative comment about white people, it has very little affect on me. But hearing offensive comments/jokes about rednecks when I moved out west, that hurt a little, because there is some history behind that and…

Context always matters but context isn't fixed at your national level. If you get jumped by several guys from an oppressed group at that moment in time and in that place they have a lot more power than you do. Just like in code that context exist within the broader global context where you correctly point out that there are power differentials. I also grew up in the south like you did but I grew up in a trailer park.…

Sure, I don't really disagree with any of that; that this entire "Muslim test" works in the first place is because it substitutes it with a group that is disadvantaged in some way, and it "feels more wrong".

But it's still "punching", whether it's punching "up", "down", or "side-ways" doesn't strike me as especially important. Maybe "punching down" is "more bad", but IMHO both are bad and we shouldn't do either. Yet it's still not only commonly done, but also socially accepted. "stop whining, it's not as bad as [..]" doesn't make it okay (not what you said, but some people have, indeed, this is essentially what the entire "#NotAllMen" meme is).

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#637

Post by edanm »

newacct583 wrote: post #520
duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

> We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial?

We do know the context. It was in the article. And without taking sides on this issue, just to clarify - the original question "debated" wasn't an ask to denounce white supremacy, it was the question of whether "we live in a white supremacist culture" and whether "white supremacy exists at basecamp", which are both very different from blanket denouncing white supremacy.

(And just to be super clear - this did lead to being asked to denounce white supremacy, and I get the impression the employees considered the response to this request inadequate, though in follow ups Jason did denounce white supremacy. I think the context of when/how this was asked is important, and luckily we do have it.)

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#638

Post by charlesu »

wyclif wrote: post #552
SvenMarquardt wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "white" isn't capitalized because it doesn't bear as much similarities to those words It is precisely the same as black. The mental gymnastics on display here are astonishing.

Yes, the point is that "black" is no more a cultural identity than "white" is. There are black Americans, black Englishmen, black Africans, etc.

Black is an overloaded term. It’s a race and an ethnicity. If you were to write about black people in Africa, it would be nonsensical to capitalize it because black doesn’t communicate any shared identity in that context. The right granularity is national, ethnic, or tribal.

But Black is a cultural identity in the context of the United States. Blacks, or African-Americans, are ethnically distinct and have shared history, culture, and language. In 1840, almost all blacks in America were slaves. In 1950, almost all blacks were descendants of slaves. At either time, almost all of them would have spoken English as their first language. At either time, most would have been born in the American South. Most importantly, at either time would have identified with each other on the basis of those shared traits.

Whites, on the other hand, are comprised of distinct ethnic groups and had their own communities throughout American history. Go to any major American city and you’ll find neighborhoods that are historically Italian, Irish, or German.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#639

Post by jariel »

Ygg2 wrote: post #462
wmoxam wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented. It was unpopular to speak out against this sort of thing, and certainly was something that got worse over time. Further, racial violence…

> Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' Hutus and Tutsi violence didn't start at jokes. It started with German and Belgian colonists literally preferring one group over the other. Raising animosity between two groups of essentially genetically same people. Hutus used the identity cards colonists left to target their purges. I'd say those influenced genocide way, way more, than so…

Although colonialism played a role, 'it started' before that.

It's fair to at least 'talk about' the 'pyramid of hate' and maybe 'believe in it' so as to 'make a point'.

But I don't think it's ok to accuse regular, well-meaning employers of 'holding up systems of White Supremacy'.

It's also basically tone-deaf for an executive, facing a 'sensitive moment' to challenge claims of racism with 'reverse racism' - even if the executive might have a rhetorical point - it's just going to inflame the situation.

I think the execs should have basically 'not acted out of contempt', said some conciliatory things and moved on. Even if they had a legit point to make, they're supposed to be 'bigger than that'.

So I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to dig into the rhetoric, but rather, they should have just found a way past the issue.

Finally, it's a good example of how toxic this stuff can be.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#640

Post by tarsinge »

otde wrote: post #463

Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work — like a fish trying to avoid water in the ocean. The ways companies are built and maintained, the relationship between employers and employees, workplace requirements and benefits — all of these are shaped by and and built from political systems, to say nothing of how politics surrounding a person’s identity might affect their worldview. You’re never going to…

I don’t follow the justification of the general statement you put first with then Basecamp specific customer’s name list issue. Basecamp were wrong in how they handled it, but I think the general point still has its merit: there is too much political discussion nowadays, and maybe the workplace should stay professional. Too bad Basecamp just ruined that discussion.
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