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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#521

Post by ceras »

rsanheim wrote: post #483
Consultant32452 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a Fortune 500 company that has gone woke, complete with critical race theory training. I'm literally the only white person in my department. I'm the racial minority. Do you think any of the training even considered that a possibility? Before this change in the company I had never even noticed my race in relation to my coworkers and I absolutely hate them for bringing it to my attention and forcing me agains…

Congratulations, you have an opportunity to experience what it feels like to work in tech as a person of color, or a woman, or any of the many other underrepresented groups in tech. Only those people experience every day at almost all companies, and can't escape it by leaving their existing company. Maybe see it as a chance to learn and grow instead of something to resent and run from?

As a URM in tech, that's not my own experience. There's rarely attention drawn to the fact that I'm a minority - and I like it that way. Heterogeneity is tough with this: some individuals like and benefit from initiatives that focus on their minority status, while others don't. No group is a monolith - individuals have different needs - not to mention that experiences can differ significantly, too.

I think there's a very fine balance to strike where you want programs to reach the people who benefit -- and certainly leaders and co-workers who need to be more inclusive -- without making those you're trying to help feel uncomfortable by having it so front and center that those who'd like to sit out can't. It's a tough balance, and I've seen companies both go too far and not far enough.

All this is to say I can imagine a situation where OP's environment really is making them more uncomfortable than what many (most?) URM's experience in the work place. Can't say for sure without knowing specifics, of course. It just isn't always a case of "more is better."

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#522

Post by DiNovi »

jariel wrote: post #102
DiNovi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

like saying white supremacy doesnt exist in the united states

The exec. did not say that. 'White Supremacy' classically means men in Pointy White Hats. The CRT people now use it to mean 'regular white people' because they, in their regular, day to day actions, uphold oppressive systems i.e. 'White Supremacy'. The denial is usually of the later, not the former. Many progressives are now using the denial of the later, to imply denial of the former, as a kind of bad faith rhetoric…

What is the definition of critical race theory

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#523

Post by benjohnson »

FireBeyond wrote: post #402
6AA4FD wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they might be alluding to things like "kill all landlords" which are I suppose jokes for some and simply calls to action for others.

I'd love to see an example of a landlord being killed as a result of such a "call to action" from a political movement. I can point to numerous people being killed by calls to action around abortion.

A few hundred-thousand dead Kulaks is a good example. Killed because they were just above the peasantry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#524

Post by simondotau »

bullfightonmars wrote: post #447
iptpus wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also "defund the police" is a shorthand that typically means "reduce direct law enforcement funding and instead fund other community engagement programs". "Reform the police" is much more universalist term that people across multiple political spectrums would have gotten behind (and it's still memorable). I'm not sure why it wasn't used instead.

Reform the Police had been the modus oparandi for fixinf policing for >50 years. It hasn’t worked. That is why more absolute language has been used. Policing organizations/unions/departments have refused to change, evolve, or improve their behavior.

Perhaps then the slogan should be closer to "Replace the Police". Something that represents both the dismantling and rebuilding of police forces.

Personally I'm a big fan of requiring a much, much higher standard of training than police have now. Especially when it comes to hand-to-hand combat. The best way to minimise the consequences is to ensure that we have maximised their skill potential with the forms of intervention which have the least risk of permanent consequences.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#525

Post by vxNsr »

jjeaff wrote: post #409
arp242 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nor did he see the irony in the fact that holding a person responsible for horrible action of people who look like them is the same way of thinking that leads bigots to blame all Arabs for the actions of the 9/11 hijackers. I like to do the "Muslim test" on these things: replace "white people" (or "men", or any other group) with "Muslims" and see how it sounds then. If it sounds yikes then it's probably not a good…

I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed group vs a similar remark about a majority group that holds most of the wealth and power?

This punching down nonsense ignores the fact that hate and bigotry has to start somewhere, if you think insults against a certain oppressed minority significantly contribute to more bigotry then it doesn’t really make sense to argue that “well they’re doing well right now so it’s ok” Bec if you keep up those insults by your own logic you will eventually be punching down. Why create that dynamic?

It’s kinda like the ppl who say insults have power and then in the same breath say ACAB or “Kill the Pigs” if you believe words are powerful and can turn into actions why are you saying such inflammatory hateful things?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#526

Post by gustavo-fring »

I'm Jewish Colombian among other things. I'm a mutt. I can pass as white.

Where my dad came from (Scary Gary) you voted Republican because up until about the 1960s, they were the party that cared about immigrants and wanted them to succeed. So, when he moved to a similarly Republican state in the 80s, he remained a Republican. The Republican is not a werewolf boogeyman around here. I made the mistake once of saying that I was a "closet Republican" on HN and I got downvoted so fast that I lost all self-confidence for about a year.

I went to a student Democrats meeting on my local campus. Now I know college political groups are a unique demographic and I get why these people (these people, yikes) feel this way, and those that I talked to were completely rational; like I could be and was one of them.

But when we were asked at the beginning of the meeting why people were Democrats, the very first person responded that they were a Democrat because they were not a racist.

The tactlessness, the arrogance, the naivety, and immaturity were so concentrated in a single sentence that I wish I could have left. But I stayed and learned even if that tribalism is toxic and wins no friends nor understanding nor ultimately progress.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#527

Post by newacct583 »

treeman79 wrote: post #294
JPKab wrote: post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

Had to quit a company last year due to bigotry. Constant bashing of white men on company calls. Exceptions if you were openly non straight. They also loved talking about how inclusive they were. Constant mocking of customer base, who was mostly traditional white people. I figure out quick I was hired only because they were desperate for someone with experience. Which sadly meant hiring an undesirable. At some point i…

You lead with an invocation of bigotry.

You give some examples.

You close with a baldly transphobic sneer.

Really?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#528

Post by arp242 »

wmoxam wrote: post #398
didgeoridoo wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence This is just a rehash of broken-windows theory, whether its proponents know it or not. The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there. There is zero evidence behind the “pyramid of hate” — it makes a shallow kind of sense, but has no basis in the real w…

> The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented. It was unpopular to speak out against this sort of thing, and certainly was something that got worse over time. Further, racial violence…

> Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented.

And they were made in the context of a general propaganda/hate campaign. The medium is the same, the context couldn't be more different.

It's the context that matters 100%, not the medium (jokes in this case) in and of themselves.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#529

Post by wvenable »

newacct583 wrote: post #520
duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

> when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial?

I'm old and never in my life have I ever been asked to denounce white supremacy. If someone asked me to denounce it, I'd be insulted that they asked. There's some serious implications behind asking someone that question that I hope would never apply to me.

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