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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#441

Post by jskdkdnsnkdkd »

I’m sympathetic to the argument that toxic discussions about issues that neither the work nor the company exist to solve are a distraction.

But what I really see here is the way power can blind. This situation was 100% avoidable but the dudes didn’t think the incoming fire was at their level.

Fried and DHH have been making “fuck you money” monthly, for well over a decade. And I happen to know what Ryan Singer’s salary was many years ago - even if he never did anything smart with it, and he is very smart, he has an impenetrable financial moat.

The money, combined with a measure of fame and influence, compounded by the fact that they have full control of Basecamp and by some intrinsic hubris is the reason this blew up in their face.

It’s a shit show but this will basically blow over. The customers mostly don’t care.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#442

Post by SquibblesRedux »

thrownaway564 wrote: post #181
Tainnor wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. But this is (was) a 60-person company. That's about the size of the company I'm currently working at. In other words, you should know everyone and interact with a sizeable chunk of these people somewhat regularly. It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over the…

The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp

When anyone tries to prescribe language, it's time to look for the exit. For anyone who has not read the book Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984)[1], or seen the movie, I strongly recommend reading or watching. George Orwell understood the power of language when he wrote about Newspeak[2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#443

Post by thrownaway564 »

prepend wrote: post #312
thrownaway564 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

their explanation: it's "gendered and not inclusive"

That seems like they don’t understand the word. I can’t think of many more communities more inclusive than hackers. It’s certainly not gendered either. Are all gendered words banned?

no only words they imagine are non-inclusive. And since they don't know anything - all they have are imaginations

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#444

Post by prawn »

Tainnor wrote: post #189
kbenson wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, in this story everyone looks like a big child. I agree for the most part there. Less so the founders, I think there sin runs more along the lines of being extremely naive (but in a way a lot of people might be, especially when the alternative might be to accept you're screwed). > something must have gone fundamentally wrong much earlier. These levels of tension and distrust don't just arise out of nowhere…

> I think there sin runs more along the lines of being extremely naive [...] which would be maybe more excusable if it didn't come from the guys who wrote several books about how awesomely they run their company. I guess that's why my sympathy for their situation is somewhat limited.

Is that more naivety though? Writing, thinking that they have the answer (or some of them) and then hitting something new that was yet to be seen in their working lives?

If I have sympathy for them, I think it would be because I could see myself making the exact same mistakes: writing confidently as my business road a wave of great timing, thinking that emboldened and involved employees were great for company culture, and then deciding that maybe it was a risky distraction.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#445

Post by SvenMarquardt »

FireBeyond wrote: post #415
SvenMarquardt wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's your evidence of that?

The quote in the article? And the fact that the author gave Singer a chance to respond, and Singer did so in some depth, and did not deny or rebut the claim that he said that?

Which quote?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#446

Post by rsyring »

MattRix wrote: post #327
prepend wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we disagree on this. I have worked with and for many great leaders who never “acknowledged white supremacy” so it is definitely possible for me, and others to trust such people. I’m not arguing semantics as my point is that there are many things more important than acknowledging white supremacy exists. This may not be true for others as it seems it’s super important for some. But if I’m in the business of cou…

There are certain issues (like this one) where silence has historically been used as a form of endorsement. It is certainly not irrational to perceive it as being an endorsement.

Arguments from silence are, by definition, illogical fallacies. There could be any number of reasons why someone might choose to remain silent. It's possible they are endorsing it, but you don't really know without additional statements or context.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argumen...

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#447

Post by bullfightonmars »

iptpus wrote: post #338
dools wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point the OP is making is that an overt statement such as "White power!!1 Jews will not replace us!!!sixonetikitorches" directly exposes a white supremacist opinion, whereas there are less overt actions that, if analysed thoughtfully, also expose white supremacy. It is very similar to people who say "I'm not racist, I don't think I'm superior to anyone and the dictionary definition of racism is to assume…

> Also "defund the police" is a shorthand that typically means "reduce direct law enforcement funding and instead fund other community engagement programs". "Reform the police" is much more universalist term that people across multiple political spectrums would have gotten behind (and it's still memorable). I'm not sure why it wasn't used instead.

Reform the Police had been the modus oparandi for fixinf policing for >50 years. It hasn’t worked. That is why more absolute language has been used.

Policing organizations/unions/departments have refused to change, evolve, or improve their behavior.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#448

Post by [deleted] »

jjeaff wrote: post #409
arp242 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nor did he see the irony in the fact that holding a person responsible for horrible action of people who look like them is the same way of thinking that leads bigots to blame all Arabs for the actions of the 9/11 hijackers. I like to do the "Muslim test" on these things: replace "white people" (or "men", or any other group) with "Muslims" and see how it sounds then. If it sounds yikes then it's probably not a good…

I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed group vs a similar remark about a majority group that holds most of the wealth and power?

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#449

Post by etchalon »

JPKab wrote: post #232

Do what I did in February: Quit. Life's too short to waste time at a company that's forgotten it's purpose. This ideology borders on cult like. A good sign that you are dealing with an irrational ideology is non-sensical, illogical and inconsisten rules. For example, in this article, "Black" is capitalized everywhere its mentioned, and "white" isn't. There's nothing logically consistent about this, because it's a bor…

The capitalization of Black is becoming increasingly accepted editorially due to its similarities to otherwise capitalized words like Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Marxist, Irish, etc. Essentially, a culturally distinct body of people.

"white" isn't capitalized because it doesn't bear as much similarities to those words, as "white" is not a cultural identity.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#450

Post by dshpala »

mellosouls wrote: post #83

In the April discussion about the list of customer names, Singer posted to say that attempting to link the list to genocide was “absurd.” On the Friday call, he went further. “I strongly disagree we live in a white supremacist culture,” Singer said. “I don't believe in a lot of the framing around implicit bias. I think a lot of this is actually racist.” He continued: “Very often, if you express a dissenting view, you…

I'm interested in "employee asked if the company could revisit Singer’s remarks" - was there a point, or did that employee just said literally that?
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