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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#401
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for what it's worth, I find the picking on DHH for taking this call from bed unnecessary If he was sick, whether physically sick because of their own actions or otherwise...sick is sick. Seemed like a no-win for him whether he could either refuse to show up because he is sick, or show up to at least listen to what's going on (assuming recording it wasn't an option).

he had over 10 retweets and tweets the same day after this call. And did not use those tweets to thank his old team, just more "apple bad" stuff as if nothing had changed. Color me skeptical.

He probably doesn't post most of those tweets himself. Still, bad work by his social team.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#402
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that even a valid comparison? It is logical that making fun of people for characteristics related to race could be escalated to more serious racist behavior, and therefore should be discouraged. But where is the logical connection between criticizing inequality and committing genocide?

I think they might be alluding to things like "kill all landlords" which are I suppose jokes for some and simply calls to action for others.

I'd love to see an example of a landlord being killed as a result of such a "call to action" from a political movement.

I can point to numerous people being killed by calls to action around abortion.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#403
post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

> Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence

And if you actually employ someone who perpetrates violence or harassment, then it really doesn’t matter whether they were prompted to do so by a list of names intended as a joke.

That person (a) needs help and (b) probably shouldn’t be kept as an employee for the safety of your workforce.

I kind of can’t believe we live in a world in which we can’t acknowledge that keeping a list of funny names is disrespectful to our fellow human beings, without then jumping to genocide as the justification for why we shouldn’t do this (and subsequently implying anyone who advocates otherwise is this pro-genocide).

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like most of these attention hungry founders have extremely poor impulse or emotion control. I’m increasingly of the opinion that a “thought leader” CEO or founder is a red flag for a company, as tales of these people’s greatness always seems to diminish with distance.

What's always funny to me is this phenomenon generally has nothing to do with the actual people involved. It's just a story telling phenomenon. None of the people who know these thought leaders imbue them with qualities they don't have.

That does not seem correct to me. It’s not a “story telling phenomenon” that DHH and Jason Fried are perceived as industry thought leaders, it’s the result of both repeated actions on their part, plus some luck. Those two didn’t accidentally end up in the public conversation, they wrote five books about working, plus god knows how many blog posts, talks, and more.

That is explicitly attention seeking behavior, and it’s a hard prerequisite to becoming a “thought leader” or even just famous enough that a three letter initial is enough to identify yourself.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#405
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it imperfect and are there trade-offs involved? Of course, but there are with anything. No disagreement here. But the argument was made that Rails "scales pretty well" and I believe this is wrong — and I don't even mean in terms of performance (that probably too), but also in terms of architectural complexity. All these problems are solvable of course, but Rails makes it IMHO harder than some other technologies.

I haven't significantly worked with Rails since 2015, so I'm not up to speed with the current state of things, but in general I found that architecturally Rails can scale mostly okay, although it can be a bit tricky if you're not very familiar with the Rails internals, but it's not overly complex either in my experience. I was never a Rails super-expert either, and I managed to bolt on plenty of stuff for customers'…

Rails is ultimately just a collection of libraries + some glue code, tooling etc., so you can, of course, build a well-architected Rails app with some discipline.

What I'm criticising is that a lot of the official guides (and/or DHH himself) often lead to problems down the road. For example, it is encouraged to do things through model callbacks. Except, once you have your send_email logic in a after_create callback and you figure out that you actually need to create users in different contexts too - e.g. in bulk updates if you need to import some data, where you don't want to always send an email - it will be painful to rewrite your code since you have no abstraction where that code should reside. Even DHH recognised this problem, when he pushed through ActiveRecord::Base.suppress [1] which was consided problematic by most everyone else (including the Rails core team). A better architecture would have a "service" or "concern" layer that would handle such things, but "the Rails way" doesn't advocate for anything outside of models, views and controllers. Though, to be fair, many real-world codebases do include such a service layer - but it's done differently everywhere.

There is also no abstraction for request validations. You're supposed to do all your validations in the model layer. But what if you have multiple requests mapping to the same model layer? Maybe the validations you want to run if an admin user updates a table are very distinct from the validations that should be run for a regular user. Again, while you can use ActiveModel objects for that, Rails doesn't particularly encourage this design and you can end up with a lot of coupling between your persistence layer and something which is essentially part of the business layer, and that can be hard to unentangle later.

Another famous problem IMHO is (by default) every single test loading the whole Rails context. This makes fast unit tests basically impossible and therefore TDD painful (which, IMHO, is particularly bad in a dynamically and heavily monkeypatched language - if you don't have static guarantees, you at least want to be able to test your changes quickly).

All of these are things that in other ecosystems - for example Spring - are handled much better. Now, I have criticisms about Spring too (slow boot times, excessive use of reflection, Hibernate is a mess, etc.) but at least it gives you some good tools to cleanly separate different layers of your application. For example, validation is generally done at DTO level, long before any of your data ever hits the database.

[1] https://medium.com/spritle-software/rails-5-activerecord-sup...

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#406
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. This isn't the argument actually being made here, so if that's what DHH thought when he shut the thread down then that might explain part of the outcry. The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere , far below violence. "Funny names" turn into off-color jokes. Off-color jokes turn i…

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence This is just a rehash of broken-windows theory, whether its proponents know it or not. The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there. There is zero evidence behind the “pyramid of hate” — it makes a shallow kind of sense, but has no basis in the real w…

Dehumanization is a key element in tolerating mistreatment of others. Inflicting atrocities carries a psychological toll that can be lessened if the victims are seen as less deserving of compassion. Name calling is an early step in this process.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#407
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Third, they secretly deleted over a decade's worth of company chat history shortly before making the disastrous blog post. Why? Fourth, they retaliated against employees by taking away benefits in the most humiliating way possible, via the aforementioned disastrous public blog post. And yet, people are still going to bat for them because...I don't know. It seems like a lot of people have a religious faith in the deci…

> Third, they secretly deleted over a decade's worth of company chat history shortly before making the disastrous blog post. Why? I can think of a reason. To protect employees who are not part of the woke mob from being “canceled” by the woke mob.

There does not seem to be any evidence of this. If there is, please provide it.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#408
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment strikes me as disingenuous and willfully obstinate. disingenuous (adj) giving a false appearance of simple frankness obstinate (adj) pertinaciously adhering to an opinion pertinacious (adj) marked by an unyieldingly persistent fixedness (as of opinion, purpose, action) that is often annoyingly perverse in fact or in appearance It looks like you simply googled those words and copy-pasted the definitions.…

> This isn’t a helpful approach. Prescriptivist appeals to the dictionary and dismissal of others’ viewpoints are not ways of listening to the perspectives of others or empathizing with different experiences, and seem to be actively preventing constructive discussion in this case. Agreed. On the flip side, I think it’s just as unhelpful an approach to co-opt a generally understood word (or phrase) and then (unbeknown…

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#409
post #253
post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

> Nor did he see the irony in the fact that holding a person responsible for horrible action of people who look like them is the same way of thinking that leads bigots to blame all Arabs for the actions of the 9/11 hijackers. I like to do the "Muslim test" on these things: replace "white people" (or "men", or any other group) with "Muslims" and see how it sounds then. If it sounds yikes then it's probably not a good…

I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed group vs a similar remark about a majority group that holds most of the wealth and power?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#410
post #163

white su·prem·a·cy; the belief that white people constitute a superior race and should therefore dominate society de·fund; prevent from continuing to receive funds Courtesy of the dictionary. This is not hard. Stop entertaining people who redefine words.

I think the point the OP is making is that an overt statement such as "White power!!1 Jews will not replace us!!!sixonetikitorches" directly exposes a white supremacist opinion, whereas there are less overt actions that, if analysed thoughtfully, also expose white supremacy. It is very similar to people who say "I'm not racist, I don't think I'm superior to anyone and the dictionary definition of racism is to assume…

This is not white supremacy, if anything I would say they believe in "black inferiority on average" since they don't direct this sentiment to other non white races and they don't direct it at black individuals who seems worthy in their eyes.

You can argue such a sentiment is racist if those people thought that blacks will not be able to lift themselves up from the situation they are in, on average. But if they do think personal agency could change it, then what is the racial issue here? They are just pointing the current situation in this specific time, not an inherent problem with the black race.

You could argue their solution of personal agency and responsibility is not going to work, but that is not a race question, it is a general social policy question how to lift people from a dire situation, which I agree, developing personal agency is difficult when you don't even know what you don't know.

In my eyes it is more of a class problem and those calls for personal agency will be directed to anybody who is in a bad situation, not necessarly to blacks. It is because it is very hard for people to imagine the lack of mental ability and skills some people have when they are not brought up in a certain culture or class for that matter.

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