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On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#691

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M)…

>> I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. When I first saw Maslow's hierarchy of needs sex appeared on it TWICE. Once on the bottom level as a basic physical need (to what extent varies of course) and again I think on the 3rd level or so as a for…

>One (fem) writer claimed it somehow justified rape. That's as absurd as saying the need for food justifies armed robbery.

People conflate "explaining" or "causing" with "justification". They also think that by eliminating words they will eliminate the actual problem...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#692

Our inability to talk about sex is a big problem that enhances all the others. Some people are happy abstaining from sex altogether, those folks might have useful advice for the Incels but they're shy of offering from having been burnt before. There's plenty of people for whom sex isn't necessarily involved in romance; I personally think a lot of people suffer because they confuse and conflate those two ideas.

Abstaining from sex is not useful advice. Sex and intimacy is a fundamental human desire and it’s cruel and unethical to tell people that they should just suck it up and suppress it.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the abstinate community exists, and could help. I've seen them try.

If you think "abstinate" isn't a valid sexuality, that there aren't people who choose not to have sex just as there are people who choose other genders, machinery, etc; then we'll just have to disagree.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#693

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. This is a very odd western view of things. None of my Bangladeshi aunts would find it at all controversial if a young man said he was sad because he was chronically unable to find a relationship. Humans are supposed to be in intimate relationships of some sort, for the purposes of making children. Friends and hobbies aren’t a replacement. I find the ease with which…

[deleted]

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#694
Remark 1: To my knowledge, it is not uncommon that men switch genders when sharing their stories on reddit simply to get more empathic reception as opposed to some "men up" rebuttal. I did that after a therapist told me a man can not be abused by woman, I wanted to see if I am really emotionally abused or just crazy. It was very helpful.

Remark 2: I vividly remember those gnawing feelings of sexual and romantic unfulfillment I suffered as a young man. But it is quite difficult to talk about those things without being accused of implying that men deserve sex and women are obliged to provide it. This post did an excellent job dancing around all the landmines, but not everybody has the capacity to do that and especially young people should have a safe platform where they could talk about these things.

Remark 3: I have noticed that men's rights activists and feminists nowadays constantly accuse each other that the other group wants privileges, not an actual equality. I would love to see a reputable research on this topic.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#695

The vast number of people commenting here that are convinced that a happy, healthy life is impossible without a sexual/romantic partner is eye-opening, and a bit horrifying. Other people will not fix you. Trying to drown your problems in a woman (or man!) is no different then trying to drown them in food, or alcohol, or any number of harder drugs. Stop running from your problems and face them.

> healthy life is impossible without a sexual/romantic partner is eye-opening, and a bit horrifying.

It seems to be true for most people, in my experience. I don't see it as "horrifying", just a normal/typical human thing.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dead bedroom situations are always the result of one party being incapable of understanding the other's desire for sex. Couldn't disagree more. Sexual attraction is not about 'understanding' how your partner feels. A man who is no longer attracted to his wife won't suddenly become attracted when he understands how she feels. Attraction is not a choice. It's not something you can talk yourself or someone else into.

> Attraction is not a choice. I sense a seduction community vibe in that quote.

Seduction would make it, if not a choice, something you can tap with the right skill.

The parent says the opposite: it's NOT a choice, you either feel it or not. So seduction techniques would not apply.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a good thought. My own religion gave me some direction for how to become to type of man women want, but it did leave something to be desired. And then upon searching for this sort of direction later in life while trying to improve my own relationships I stumbled upon the "red pill" communities. There's a lot of nuance to these communities as well. They tell men that you can become the type of man that…

I think there's room for some down to earth, responsible men to try and fill this space. Right now the "teach young men how to be" space is mostly filled with misogyny and terrible pick up artists. Goodness yes. The PUA and red pill communities have absolutely poisoned this space and, at least in America, it's impossible to see how a healthy alternative could even take root. I know that if one sprang up, my first rea…

goes back to the author's statements:

>there’s a vast difference between a person who believes the stated beliefs of a group as opposed to a person who holds membership in a group as a defining part of their identity. Imagining a conversation with someone who generically believes women should be treated well is a much different experience than imagining the same conversation with person who boldly declares themselves a feminist; the same is true for what you’d expect from a talk with an MRA.

Always seems to come down to good intentions, bad actors that make such "identities" dangerous. Even if it's an otherwise honest person that just wants some self-help advice.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#698
post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. A quick Google search on life expectancy during the middle ages tells me that men lived longer than women.

Where do you see that? Every result from my quick searching is listing women as longer than men. Example: https://www.purplemotes.net/2015/08/23/medieval-life-expecta...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2847291?seq=1

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there it is, your bias is exactly the problem. Per https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics 81% of women experience sexual harassment/assault in their lifetimes along with 43% of men. Please educate yourself and stop spreading the lie that men are not sexually assaulted, it’s incredibly destructive.

Less than half? Seems like my statement was factual, but that didn't stop you from jumping all over it to make some kind of point.

43% of men experience sexual assault/harassment in their lifetime, yet you are sticking by your statement that “Your son will likely never be sexually harassed or assaulted”? A 57% chance of something happening is definitely not likely.

And yes I am clearly making a point: people that gloss over sexual crimes against men are spreading destructive lies not supported by any data. Maybe it went over your head the first time I said it?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's different from wanting similar outcomes between groups of millions of people, because those almost invariably come from inequality of opportunity. Can you cite any evidence that this is the case? It seems you are simply defining inequality of outcome to mean the same thing as inequality of opportunity at the group level.

Unless you believe there are innate differences between the ability of these groups, then yes the two are logically equivalent. If you don't believe so, I'm not going to get in this debate today.

The trick is that life is a series of "opportunities" and equality of opportunity at any particular point of choice generally results in perpetuating any imbalance of opportunity that has occurred before that.

For the sake of illustration, assume two large groups of kids who innately would have had identical ability, but one's growth and education is (on average) more stunted because their families are more likely to be single parent families, or have a parent in jail, or just very poor (which affects a lot), so right now they don't have identical average ability because they did not get equal education and support some decades ago.

If you want to have equal representation of the groups, you'd have to artificially correct for all the previous differences in opportunity - without a time machine, you can't actually fix the differences in their skills and experience (no matter how fairly or unfairly those differences came to be), you can only pretend that those differences don't exist. And so we come to the core issue that granting equal treatment to unequally capable candidates means granting unequal treatment to equally capable candidates, there's no way around it.

And there's also a gap between treating individuals fairly and treating groups fairly. You can't/don't measure the opportunity differences on an individual level, but on a group level, and individual variation in opportunity is huge. In general, any "compensating opportunities" happen at a group level, because if one group is underrepresented under a "background-blind" schema, then it's because lots and lots of capable individuals from that group have "filtered away" and gone on to very different life paths long before applying - and any corrective action or quota system is not helping those individuals who suffered most from the lack of earlier opportunities (because they're already "out"), instead it's granting a larger (compensating) opportunity to other individuals who just happen to be from the same group but had enough opportunity to "stay in the game", while individuals who personally have had so-so opportunities get punished if they happen to come from a group that (on average!) has more opportunities.

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