On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#361

Post by alex_smart » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #250

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. This is a very odd western view of things. None of my Bangladeshi aunts would find it at all controversial if a young man said he was sad because he was chronically unable to find a relationship. Humans are supposed to be in intimate relationships of some sort, for the purposes of making children. Friends and hobbies aren’t a replacement. I find the ease with which…

Yup, I am from India and the experience of men from South Asian countries completely negates the argument in the original comment. Most men in these cultures have no problem finding strong friendships and family bonds, but can still struggle with loneliness and self-esteem when they fail to find intimate relationships.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#362

Post by ufmace » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> I think that's the strongest criticism of incels as well; having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life.

Let me take this in another direction than most of the other comments:

Say you're talking to a homosexual person in a deeply homophobic society, one so bad that you risk becoming a pariah at the very notion that you might enjoy relations with someone of the same sex. Would you tell that person to basically get over it and figure out how to be happy anyways because it's "not a requirement for a happy life"? If that feels like it would be wrong to say, ask why it feels wrong to tell it to that person, but okay to say it to the subjects of the article.

I'm not really sure what should be done offhand. I know the situations aren't exactly analogous. But if you think it's bad to call homosexual people nasty things and they should be allowed to love, then how can it be okay to just casually dismiss straight people who have trouble finding love as being bad people and tell them to get over it?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#363

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #281

hn8788 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't work out as well as it sounds. Unsuprisingly, the amount of women willing to have sex with strangers for money is relatively low. Studies have shown that legalizing prostitution increases the rate of human trafficking to meet the greater demand. https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-...

That's a function of massive income inequality across countries, though. Fix that, and the incentive for trafficking disappears.

But fixing income inequality would presumably reduce the number of women willing to sell sex, so you're back to square 1.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#364

Post by screye » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

>Lonely? Make strong friendships!

Poor? Get rich?

Self-fulfilling prophecies are futile.

> romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life

We have proof of various intelligent animals, domesticated and wild, that display signs of depression, loneliness and self-harm when separated from their bonded partner. If anything, the need for intimacy and romance are central to life as we know it.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#365

Post by twobitshifter » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

bloak wrote: post #316

twobitshifter wrote: post #136

The average man will go through a period of involuntary celibacy and I don’t believe this is a new thing but we’re now good at labeling. History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men! https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2012... (Note not sure the primary source on this stat, but the general idea is that polygamy was once common leading to fewer men reproducing) We’re doing…

"History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men!" That doesn't necessarily imply polygamy, and it doesn't necessarily imply "incels". Imagine a society in which women get married at age 16 and typically die during childbirth before they reach the age of 32, and men get married at age 32, if they live that long, which most of them don't, and then get married again when the first wife dies durin…

I think that you have a good point, there’s other factors that could contribute to the stats. We have seen that war can throw demographics out of balance even in modern times, such as Russia after WWII.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#366

Post by ObserverNeutral » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

fghthidudhmbdi wrote: post #41

chasd00 wrote: post #11

isn't sex/partner/pro-creation at the very root of all forms of life? If you can't have sex then nature is saying you shouldn't have sex.

Even more Darwinianly: if you can't have sex, nature dictates your dna, and the life it produced, is actually worthless.

I guess you are saying to yourself "I am worthless" every time you put a condom on... :|

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#367

Post by toyg » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

tengbretson wrote: post #326

toyg wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a function of massive income inequality across countries, though. Fix that, and the incentive for trafficking disappears.

Let's start with the assumption that we will have to solve this problem while under the constraints of actual reality.

Are you saying that massive economic inequality is a-OK...?

These are all big problems we ain't gonna fix in 5 years or 10.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#368

Post by ceilingcorner » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #356

ceilingcorner wrote: post #240

These issues are far more serious than is known and commenters saying “too bad, you don’t deserve to date someone” really don’t understand how ineffective this approach is. You can’t just shame tens of thousands of men into accepting a substandard life. Disclaimer: I am not making any ethical judgments here, just observing. This problem didn’t really exist before for three reasons. One, widespread access to prostitut…

> Personally, that seems something of a dystopian solution to the problem It's the one with the fewer externalities. Forcing an unhappy couple to stay together can traumatize children, produce widespread violence (another one of those things that were kinda just "accepted" in the past), and even end up in murder. It would be much more dystopian to force women into distributing sex equally, surely?

These aren’t either or situations. Acting as if the only options are an abusive marriage or prostitution is really misleading.

There are plenty of ways to incentivize monogamy, disincentivize divorce, and yet still allow for individual freedom.

Why haven’t these been tested? I’ll suggest because like all movements, the gender equality movement has been driven largely by extremist activists (who gain social power) and corporations (who gain more workers and consumers), not by average people.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#369

Post by standardUser » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

There are some real solutions to be had here...

1) Decriminalize sex work.

2) Implement a national healthcare system that fully covers mental health services, including regular therapy sessions.

3) Expand sex education to include more diverse types of sex and relationships, including non-monogamy.

These won't solve the problem. They will absolutely make the problem less severe.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#370

Post by ergot_vacation » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

The vast number of people commenting here that are convinced that a happy, healthy life is impossible without a sexual/romantic partner is eye-opening, and a bit horrifying.

Other people will not fix you. Trying to drown your problems in a woman (or man!) is no different then trying to drown them in food, or alcohol, or any number of harder drugs. Stop running from your problems and face them.