On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#641

Post by michaelpb » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

textgel wrote: post #448

krastanov wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you spell out how the link you shared says anything about "year on year decrease" or anything about the movement being viewed as "despicable". Especially in the context of your very reference saying that the results depend significantly on how the question is phrased?

Ask yourself if you or other people would be more comfortable identifying as feminists publicly now as opposed to 5/10 years ago; that'll give you answer 1. As for answer 2, I've shown what basic searches can come up with. "why im not a feminst" might give you what you're looking for.

Not OP, but Answer 1: Yes, it's anecdotal but you definitely see the trend.

Answer 2: So I did the Google search as you requested, and read about the book [1]. I hadn't heard of it but it looks interesting, thanks for recommending. From what I can tell, it's central claim is that feminism has an image problem due to it being co-opted by the US right-wing which she calls "choice feminism", and the remedy is a need to return to a leftist concept of what she calls "radical feminism". Is that what you're saying?

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Not-Feminist-Manifesto/dp/1612...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#642

Post by medicineman » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

crocsarecool wrote: post #589

mrweasel wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an excellent interview in Danish radio with male/couples therapist, his take was really interesting. There are three groups of men, in his view. The lower class, being uneducated and poor, the upper class, being extremely successful. Both of these group have no problem with the changing male roles or feminism, they just ignore it or it doesn't affect them. They just continue as always and it works for them.…

Please bring back the gentleman! I feel like men and women’s roles have taken a left turn from becoming equals in society to striving for sameness.

Do it. Less competition for my sons.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#643

Post by betwixthewires » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #244

everdrive wrote: post #190

>Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sym…

Everyone wants everyone else to adopt an idealistic world view while they use shrewd pragmatism to navigate life.

It's a shame this account is a throwaway.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#644

Post by serverholic » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #466

everdrive wrote: post #190

>Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sym…

> but the fact is that women despise weak men. I'd say this is true for all genders and people. Homosexual people also display this tendency just as well as heterosexual males. Heck, even in friendships, it can be hard to enjoy being with a buddy that is going through a deep funk despite all your efforts to rouse them out of it. People want to be with people like themselves. Misery loves company, and vice-versa

A weak woman will still be able to find a man to take care of her. A weak man not so much.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#645

Post by addison-lee » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #614

theropost wrote: post #380

It must be confusing to be a boy these days with all the conflicting messaging on how they should or should not be. The expectations of men are conflicting, confusing, uneven, and ever-changing. Equality is thrown around, with many exceptions across the board. Men simply bite their tongues in society, and are expected to do so without much complaint. Men are told to share their feelings, but then ignored or shamed wh…

Your son will likely never be sexually harassed or assaulted, which is something we can't say about most women.

And there it is, your bias is exactly the problem.

Per https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics 81% of women experience sexual harassment/assault in their lifetimes along with 43% of men.

Please educate yourself and stop spreading the lie that men are not sexually assaulted, it’s incredibly destructive.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#646

Post by PeterisP » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #167

Phrodo_00 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: Isn't this equivalent to equity vs equality?

In my experience, people who are against "equity" call it "equality of outcome" because it sounds more Orwellian/communistic/whatever your dystopian descriptor of choice is. Very few people actually advocate for "equality of outcome". Equity is closer to "equality of opportunity" than "equality of outcome". "Equality" is neither of those things because it doesn't correct for differences in opportunity and therefore o…

> Very few people actually advocate for "equality of outcome"

There are certainly many people advocating for explicit "equality of outcome" policies e.g. various quota systems that mandate granting unequal opportunities for otherwise equally suitable applicants in order to achieve an equitable outcome for various groups (e.g. gender, ethnicity, caste, etc) the applicants represent.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#647

Post by _zmos » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

rrradical wrote: post #596

everdrive wrote: post #190

>Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sym…

I don't mean to be glib, but, are you saying women who are in a poor state are desirable? I don't think so... Is it bad that women don't find some men attractive, when those same men probably wouldn't find some women attractive? I apologize if that misconstrues your opinion, but I've heard it elsewhere before: that somehow women 'should' be more forgiving of unattractiveness than men are, and that's really weird to m…

actually, i do personally prefer women of poor, humble backgrounds myself. and believe it or not, since i'm just a random person on the internet, i'm actually worth $15m (from inheritance) so it's not like i'm trying to date within my class or something.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#648

Post by serverholic » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

colmvp wrote: post #263

everdrive wrote: post #190

>Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sym…

Some of my best friends are women and have been there for me in ways that my other guy friends certainly haven't during bouts of loneliness during times of lockdowns. But perhaps it is different when it comes to partners.

Assuming you're a straight male, I dare you to cry in front of your girlfriend/wife.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#649

Post by krastanov » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

betwixthewires wrote: post #634

krastanov wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you have to acknowledge that extremists and totalitarians do exist" is a cheap rhetorical device to sneak in "both sides are the same" fallacies. Yes, of course there are crazies in any political movement, demographic, subculture, or other group. Elevating these crazies to the first thing mentioned when discussing the actual substance of the beliefs of a group is silly at best, but more frequently it is simply a dis…

I think that it is just as important to talk about the extremes and the bad ideas as it is to talk about the good ones. We bring up the extremes because they're there, and they can be tempting, and so we should warn each other about them. Saying what you're saying usually (but not always) is an attempt to not address the usually perfectly reasonable point one is responding to without outright defending the extremes.…

You are completely right in the appropriate context: when talking about ideology A we should consider more than just its most standard version. But when comparing ideology A and ideology B, focusing on the extremes of ideology A while considering only the middle ground of ideology B (what happened in this thread) is more or less whataboutism.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#650

Post by ameminator » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

treesrule wrote: post #18

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. I don't have the all data off hand (see some citations below) but I believe they say married men live longer, commit less crimes and are happier. So yes in some sense, can you be happy if you are not married however, is it almost certainly harder. I assume you would find similar data for not having a romantic parter. You, a human, are…

I think there is a really good point here. However, it should be recognized that some of those studies do not control for divorced vs never married very well and the magnitude of the benefit of marriage is over-stated. Not to say marriage does not have health/happiness/other benefits, but the effect is smaller (although the Harvard study seems to control for it certain cases, in strange ways).