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On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what I'm responding to is the idea that if you're only ever happy when your partner is there, there's likely something wrong. I didn't even really bring up single life. > indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother) What do you mean by this? Why bother with what? (As an aside, I actually don't think that being in a relationship is something that all people need to strive for.)

> > indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother) > What do you mean by this? Why bother with what? Why bother finding a partner. If you aren't measurably happier with a partner, why go through the effort of finding one?

An inability to be happy without a person is not the same as a person making you happy.

"I'm miserable when my partner isn't around", is not the same as "I'm happier when my partner is around". Does that make sense?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making some pretty wild misrepresentations of reality: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-centu... The closest thing I can find to your interpretation is that women of color are less probable to adopt the term "feminist" because they are less probable to feel the movement has done enough for them. I do not know who has convinced you of an alternative definition of the word, but feminism me…

Literally the first google result of "women identifying as feminst" https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism And plenty more for the willing student; however an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement might understandably place some difficulty on those in need of finding these things. And funnily enough the definition of a group has no…

Could you spell out how the link you shared says anything about "year on year decrease" or anything about the movement being viewed as "despicable". Especially in the context of your very reference saying that the results depend significantly on how the question is phrased?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the first google result of "women identifying as feminst" https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism And plenty more for the willing student; however an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement might understandably place some difficulty on those in need of finding these things. And funnily enough the definition of a group has no…

> an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement Citation needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious couples tend to have the most fulfilling sex lives. Conservative religious couples have the best: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7060099/Highly-reli... Myself, as a highly conservative married man, my findings confirm the daily mail article, esp. when I look at the sex lives of my married friends who were more libertine in their youth. EDIT: A few theories: 1. My wife is not on birth control, whic…

A lot of this stuff is just fact to you, isn't it? It's hard to engage when some of the things you talk about here seem immutable to you but are not even reasonable points of contention to me. "Pornography leads to hell" if hell were real and if pornography certainly led to eternal condemnation in hell, pornography would be bad, but neither of those "if" statements really lead for much discussion. What was the goal o…

I believe pornography leads to hell, yes. I also believe that, even if you didn't believe that, it would lead to unhappy marriages? You should feel free to argue to me the benefits of pornography, though.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#435
post #151

My pet theory is that the developed or post-industrialized world is becoming increasingly two-classed. I have had the privilege of having a decent job (being so-called "economically desirable") and decent education and was able to find someone who I think loves me for who I am, for some definition of "I am". That being said, the "incel" problem concerns me. I think the existence of this entire class of individuals sh…

> Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. I genuinely don't understand how someone can reconcile these in their head.

Replace gender with race and some voting/political patterns become obvious.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#436
This person is basically saying "show sympathy to those with intentionally despicable viewpoints, because maybe you can convert them". Stating this ulterior motive undermines the whole point - if your motivation is to change them, it is not to understand them or sympathize with them.

It also begs the question: are these newly formed sympathizers susceptible to being converted themselves? Could the sympathy train lead to even more incels, not fewer?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern feminism has actually been fairly two-faced on what it really wants. At this point, I can't tell whether feminism would prefer (given constraints only allow for one): * Working on an issue which only helps women a bit, but doesn't help men at all * Working on an issue which helps both women and men a lot Considering media has a routine narrative of painting men as demons and women as angels, any claim that fem…

I don't think it's helpful to think of "feminism" as a singular movement, the way it's often portrayed in conservative editorial writing and cable news. We're talking about 50+ years of academic scholarship and grassroots activism here, and all the complications and inconsistencies that implies. If you're looking for something in particular to make this case for you, I recommend reading the short book Feminism is for…

editorials - especially on the right

I know you don't intend to do so, but assuming that someone's conclusions about an issue must have come from talking points, and were not arrived at independently, dehumanizes them and makes it difficult to convince them of anything.

It discounts the lived experiences of people who have seen their friends and coworkers radicalized against them, of either gender. "This happened to me" cannot successfully be countered by "stop parroting X/Y/W-wing editorials." (general pattern I've seen even among family, not necessarily your phrasing)

The terminology used also doesn't help make the case for feminism among anyone not already convinced. Terms like "the patriarchy" can be seen as implying that it's okay to talk about men as a whole group who can be vilified, but it's not okay to talk about women in any negative way at all. Or "ally" could be seen as implying that the only identity someone not of group Z can have that matters is as an accessory to their cause.

The most disappointing and insulting thing a friend has ever said to me might be (paraphrasing) "I thought you wanted to be an ally." No, I wanted to be your friend, not a footsoldier who dutifully agrees with you 100% of the time no matter what my independent experiences have been.

I don't think it's helpful to think of "feminism" as a singular movement,

Sadly, even some of those who advocate for feminism (whichever branches might be considered "the good kind" for purposes of this discussion) seem to deliberately lump feminist movements together, so one can be forgiven for seeing terms like "the patriarchy" used by different groups and not knowing which group's beliefs to ascribe to the term. I don't think this can be blamed on a particular flavor of media, except maybe social media.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a company that set a diversity target of 33% women in tech roles. In the same all-hands that announced this target leadership said using our definition of a "tech role" 20% of the workforce was women. To achieve this, we gave women two chances to pass the pre-onsite coding interview instead of one. Sure, this isn't as forceful as a hard 50/50 quota but it is pushing the needle away from equality and towar…

> And progressive taxation. Point of order: I'm taxed the same on my one-millionth dollar of income (assuming the same source) as Jeff Bezos is. ... I just don't have a one-millionth dollar of income to tax, but if someone wants to shift things toward equality rather than equity I'll happily accept donations toward that end. To make things more equal for Bezos and to strike a blow against equity, naturally.

> To make things more equal for Bezos and to strike a blow against equity, naturally.

This is exactly my point: a flat tax rate would be more equal, but less equitable. And I do support a tax code that is more equitable, rather than more equal in this regard.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#439

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy in life is their partner then something is wrong When you get older, a partner (or children) are important to keep you going. Your body will fail you. Your mind will fail you. Your life will end and (statistically) it will be a long downward slope. Binding yourself to the right person keeps that slope more e…

So you are saying to marry is a way to earn yourself a free nurse in old age? I say better make enough money to pay for a nurse.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#440
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a lone wolf I totally disagree. I think that we are engineered to have sexual and romantic partners by default. And there are some, like me, that somehow we can live without one and not fall into addiction traps ( drugs, party, videogames... ). But we all have friends ( most ) that are not like this, the difference for most of them between being single or not is big, and I don’t agree that they are depressed its j…

Most people need comfort for the misery of their lives. some choose food (obesity), some choose crazy partners (tend to be great in bed but bad in life), other choose video games (sense of accomplishment), and others try to help others as a way of hiding from themselves. most people are running, some though are doing it in a socially acceptable way. but the root cause is the same.

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