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Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

nytimes.com

201–210 of 223 posts

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#201
post #2

> Polls show that about 30 percent of the U.S. population is still reluctant to be vaccinated. That number is expected to improve but probably not enough. “It is theoretically possible that we could get to about 90 percent vaccination coverage, but not super likely, I would say,” said Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. This is really poor, positive vaccine sentiment in…

Ah yes, vaccine reluctance must only come from ignorance. Certainly not education or research into the side effects of vaccines and how these in particular affect people of younger ages with more risks than getting covid.

[deleted]

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that updating your story/viewpoint with new information is a good trait to have. However, the updating appears to be one-sided (more restrictive/slower re-opening etc.). Why do vaccinated people still need to wear masks and why are outdoor activities being curtained when the evidence is clear they are low risk. Again, the updating of information _appears_ to be one-sided

> Why do vaccinated people still need to wear masks and why are outdoor activities being curtained when the evidence is clear they are low risk. Because they're still collecting data on whether or not vaccinated people can still be transmitters of the virus. And when visiting a business, the business doesn't know who is and isn't vaccinated, so it's easier to just still require masks on everybody. Also, imagine if we…

History has shown you to be right, too! Every time we have re-opened too soon, it was followed by a spike of cases, then a spike of deaths. When will we learn?

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#203

99.7% survival rate and those in power expect us to bend over and just ask for more violations of our civil liberties.

I'm not sure your number is accurate, but even if it is, that is a general population number and doesn't take into account the higher risk certain populations, such as over 65 or those with comorbidities. Essentially the use of that number with no context encourages people to act as if the risk is spread evenly, but an asymptomatic 18 year old has a much higher risk of killing their grandparents than 0.3%. https://ww…

You're right, shut down the economy and destroy the poor end of town's livelihoods. Gotta save grandma.

Disingenuous statements aside, the people in charge of policy clearly don't care enough to follow the rules themselves. They've put covid patients in nursing homes, ignored their own lockdown rules and intimidated people at religious worship. There's no doubt in my mind that we were deliberately lied to about the severity of this virus

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#204
post #67

Honest question - I'm after good articles to read about this: Why is it that we have been able to eliminate things like Polio and Smallpox, yet there's doubt about COVID? They were both viruses, must have mutated, were fairly easily spread and it must have taken longer to vaccinate enough people given the advances in logistics and vaccine tech we now have. What's the fundamental difference?

My take would be that those diseases affect children while COVID does not. I think we would have seen pretty much everyone on board with COVID vaccines if COVID was severely crippling children.

Those diseases effected children because children didn't have immunity. However childhood diseases often killed adults that somehow didn't catch those diseases as children.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be really nice if that were the case. Unfortunately, at least in many countries, it's been scientists/academics attacking anyone who questioned the reliability of scientific output. For sure, politicians deserve their fair share of the blame, but they're by and large not the ones attacking people who say "you have limited data and it does not seem to support your conclusions". Nor are they the source of all the…

You make some good points, and it raises a question I've been wondering about. My scientist friends--those who are working in labs and doing actual research--have all been really hesitant to make any hard claims about COVID since the very beginning. Pretty much every conversation I have with them is, "We don't know, we think X, but it's way to early to be certain." On the flip side, as you've pointed out, some of the…

Mmm, it's a good question. Completely agree we need far more journalism on these topics. Unfortunately the media can't do it because science journalists are all dependent on academia for stories and find it tough to bite the hand that feeds them.

The biggest problems seem to be with scientists who don't actually work in labs, people that in industry we'd call data scientists. There's nothing to ground them in the real world, no clear research directions or high level goals, and it's too easy to just manipulate the data or ignore data that disproves prior papers. It's possible your friends are better because they work in labs.

But there's also another possibility, and it's not a pleasant one to ask about, but have you actually downloaded and read papers published by your friends? One thing that becomes apparent when you dig into this is that researchers are very willing to give their friends/colleagues a heavily hedged conclusion, whilst telling the public that their conclusion is not merely unarguable fact, but also an absolute scientific consensus that demands immediate government action. This is part of the reason why academics are losing trust; open access has happened, the internet has happened, and now it's easy to download their papers to see the contradictions for yourself. An example would be Flaxman et al 2020 which attempted to prove that lockdowns worked. It set up a model that could only conclude that lockdowns worked (because it had no component to represent any sort of natural decline and for other reasons), and admitted half way through that this made the results unrealistic. But by the time those same researchers were publishing press releases on the university website and giving interviews, they were claiming there was now solid proof that lockdowns had saved millions of lives. Same people, totally different stories and in ways that were not innocent mistakes. Journalists deserve at least some blame for not treating their sources adversarially but the deception was originally coming from the researchers, not the press. A related problem seen in the UK is the way that predictions assigned near 100% certainty are suddenly rewritten as having been mere "scenarios" the moment someone corners a scientist and shoves a graph of real measurements in their face.

And then there are the other issues.

One is surely filtering related. When you look at the composition of the SAGE advisory council in the UK, you discover that one influential member is a lifetime member of the British Communist Party! Another is in an open relationship with a woman who's a part of Extinction Rebellion. Their leader was a man who apparently shocked his friends when he joined GlaxoSmithKline because of his lifelong open hatred for corporations and pharma firms of any kind. These people aren't at all normal or representative of the general population's views, so how does that happen? Some of it is that academia selects for people who want to be judged by impact rather than e.g. their salary size. And some of it must be a question of who chases after advisory roles to governments. A double selection effect, in other words.

Another is the certainty aspect that you allude to. The most influential "scientists" are actually modellers, not scientists. They insist that they are scientists, but the scientific method is MIA in fields like epidemiology. If you read their papers you'll find lots of predictions and no followups to measure the accuracy of the predictions. It's just one long run of model outputs, presented alongside the inevitable policy recommendations, but when you go digging through a reverse citation search to look for followups where the model accuracy is calculated, you come up with nothing. Why are the most influential scientists these people? Well, exactly because they use their models to generate policies. They tell politicians, "our scientific models say X will happen if you do Y and if you don't there will be an enormous crisis that everyone will blame you for". The politicians meanwhile feel they can't push back, even if they intuit the truth that the claim is scientifically unsupportable, because academics are very good at making jargon filled and very technical arguments involving lots of maths. Some papers have obvious errors, but when they're pointed out academics just blast people with even more pseudo-science along with many claims of criticising in bad faith, not being legitimate, etc. You need to have copious free time and an extremely high degree of confidence with logic, stats and programming to correctly see through the BS they are capable of generating. The media can't do it and immediately fall in line, politicians then then feel they have to follow. The only people who do push back end up being a motley assortment of bloggers, often retired or out-of-field, who have the free time and career immunity to wade through the morass pointing out the errors. Journals rarely publish them of course, because they also can't bite the hand that feeds them, and science journalists don't know how to evaluate arguments except via reference to institutional hierarchies so just ignore them. But most people don't have those limits, so more and more people find the articles written by those newly-born "skeptics", read them, realise the arguments make sense and their faith in science declines. The institutions wail about disinformation without realising that they're the ones generating it.

The whole system is locked in this feedback loop and because academia is so heavily government funded there's no obvious way to break it. There are no penalties for doing bad science, as even many scientists will admit, but plenty of rewards. So public confidence in research will continue to fall until it reaches the same level as journalists or politicians, perhaps even less given that those people are at least in direct competition with each other whereas academics aren't (or rather, the competition they're in does not select for anything the public cares about). Eventually you will get a new generation of politicians who openly attack scientists in the same way that Trump openly attacked the press. There will be calls for defunding which will be responded to with more bans, more censorship, more street protests and more chaos. What comes after? Only the future knows.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#206
post #2

> Polls show that about 30 percent of the U.S. population is still reluctant to be vaccinated. That number is expected to improve but probably not enough. “It is theoretically possible that we could get to about 90 percent vaccination coverage, but not super likely, I would say,” said Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. This is really poor, positive vaccine sentiment in…

Ah yes, vaccine reluctance must only come from ignorance. Certainly not education or research into the side effects of vaccines and how these in particular affect people of younger ages with more risks than getting covid.

Genuinely curious about side effects of the covid vaccines, do you have sources for this?

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that updating your story/viewpoint with new information is a good trait to have. However, the updating appears to be one-sided (more restrictive/slower re-opening etc.). Why do vaccinated people still need to wear masks and why are outdoor activities being curtained when the evidence is clear they are low risk. Again, the updating of information _appears_ to be one-sided

> Why do vaccinated people still need to wear masks and why are outdoor activities being curtained when the evidence is clear they are low risk. Because they're still collecting data on whether or not vaccinated people can still be transmitters of the virus. And when visiting a business, the business doesn't know who is and isn't vaccinated, so it's easier to just still require masks on everybody. Also, imagine if we…

Just wanted to reply that I am firmly against policies like requiring masks because its easier to identify compliance, it reeks of star of david on jacket mentality.

Its EASY to have draconian and blanket restrictions. Its HARD to sit down and come up with more reasonable policy that balance risk and preserving some semblance of liberty.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#208
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize they achieved this by effectively locking down their borders right? Now, imagine the response if Trump had suggested this. Actually, you don't even need to imagine it: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-coronavirus-borders_n_5...

That article is from 2020-03-12. By that day, we had a total of 40 deaths and 1.5k confirmed cases. It was pretty obviously spreading within the US at that point, and just closing the borders wasn't going to stop it. Headlines for context: > Trump Appears More Concerned With Closing Borders Than Testing For Coronavirus > The president has characterized the pandemic as a “foreign virus” and suggested that banning peop…

Where did I say anything about "just closing the borders"? Yes multiple approaches are necessary. My point was that if Trump had tried the same tactics NZ did he would have been met with vitriol about how racist and xenophobic he was. People still won't admit that his administration was responsible for getting the vaccine out in a timely manner.

NZ had the obvious benefit of being an island with a low population that was able to easily lock their borders down and keep people socially distanced. They didn't pull off some miracle that no one else can figure out.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is really poor, positive vaccine sentiment in the UK has increased to 94% (late March) since December 2020 and actual take-up in my area isn't far off (about 91%). That's almost 1 in 3 people in the US who are reluctant to get vaccinated. Blame the media and hypocritical politicians who talk out both sides of their mouths. You can't expect the citizens to want the vaccine while simultaneously doing sensationali…

Maintaining other interventions reduces the overshoot and makes the pandemic go away faster, it isn't an assessment of the vaccines. (Vaccinated people wearing masks doesn't make a huge difference, but it reduces friction for places like stores to just require masks instead of trying to communicate and enforce a mixed policy)

Not my point. I'm telling you that sort of rhetoric will produce an anti-vax response. It's a piss poor understanding of social reactions by the CDC/government. They will convince none of those people to get the vaccine if they continue on that path.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is really poor, positive vaccine sentiment in the UK has increased to 94% (late March) since December 2020 and actual take-up in my area isn't far off (about 91%). That's almost 1 in 3 people in the US who are reluctant to get vaccinated. Blame the media and hypocritical politicians who talk out both sides of their mouths. You can't expect the citizens to want the vaccine while simultaneously doing sensationali…

> Even Fauci and the CDC to be promoting the idea that the vaccine isn't that effective. Get the vaccine! You still have to wear masks, social distance, and effectively stay locked down! This isn't because they don't trust the vaccines, it's because we haven't had enough time yet to figure out if vaccinated people can still actually spread the virus. So far , the data suggests no, but the CDC wants to play it safe.

>This isn't because they don't trust the vaccines, it's because we haven't had enough time yet to figure out if vaccinated people can still actually spread the virus. So far, the data suggests no, but the CDC wants to play it safe.

Not my point. I don't care what they actually think. I'm telling you how it's perceived by the citizens who are weary about receiving it. It looks bad and they really need a better PR department if they want more people to trust them.

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