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Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

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Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#81
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from Eindhoven I'am a bit jealous of the Startup community in Amsterdam. But still I would not really consider working in Amsterdam. The 1:20 hour single trip commute by train would take the best of me.

Then do a startup in Eindoven. On the international scale of things, Eindhoven is a suburb of Amsterdam. Or the other way around. People don't live in SF and work in San Jose much, either. That said, my underbelly feeling is that Eindhoven is getting a nice startup scene, slowly swelling, though mostly focused on devices and not so much on software. But in all honesty I don't think there's much of a difference. Wheth…

Addendum: I think Eindhoven might have near virgin hiring grounds. Thousands of brilliant people currently work at a small number of high-tech BigCo's, spending a week on fixing two bugs in 30M lines of unmaintainable C code (I'm talking to you, ASML). Some of these must know, deep inside, that things can be better.

I think that a startup that grows a fair bit past ramen profitability has a lot to offer to these kinds of people. The biggest problem is how to get the word out.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#82
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is typically unaffordable for most developers (single). If you earn 50.000 euro per year, this would be 50% of your net-income. Most rental agencies have requirements on your income before you are eligible to rent an apartment. This could be 4 or 4.5 times your pretax income so you would require a 60-70k salary (or income) per year. That is 85k-100k USD. That is a high end salary, which only the most senior peop…

This represents about the nicest apartment in Amsterdam. Things get cheaper the further you move from the center. And what "most rental agencies" require doesn't affect us. We have our own agency.

Mind to share that agency with the rest of us or give a ballpark price for an apartment a typical developer can afford (30-40k pre-tax salary)? I know lots of people who have been searching for places in Amsterdam to live for a decent price.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#83
post #34

Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (w…

You should really do some travelling. It will cure you from your inappropriate pessimism.

-- an Amsterdam hub member.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#85
post #34

Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (w…

You should really do some travelling. It will cure you from your inappropriate pessimism. -- an Amsterdam hub member.

Contrary to your assumption I've done a reasonable amount of traveling. This summer, for example, I'm working from Paris for a month. I've done an internship in the US and visited four continents and around fourteen countries. I'm not done traveling, because there is so much left to see and experience, but I do have a little international perspective.

I tried to give some perspective with my post, but didn't intend to be overly pessimistic. In fact, I applaud your initiative (in hindsight, I could've been more clear about that). That being said, I still think that we lack an entrepreneurial culture here in the Netherlands[1] and that the image of intellectual and cultural freedom that might attract foreign startups has lost part of its shine in the last decade of isolationism[2], high-profile political murders and racial tension.

I do wish to concede on my point that Amsterdam isn't really a local technical startup hub in the first place, apart from the creative industry and mobile applications. From the Dutch perspective this might be true, as we have more advanced hubs in Enschede/Twente and Eindhoven, but from an international perspective distances are so small that this isn't really a factor and your initiative seems to be broader than just Amsterdam anyway. Amsterdam definitely has more allure to foreigners than provincial towns like Eindhoven and Enchede. E.g. Utrecht is one of the universities on the forefront of the Haskell community and this city is 30 minutes by train from Amsterdam. Groningen is a bit further, but their university has some great hackers working on cool stuff too (like two NLP specialists that are also on HN: http://nlpwp.org/book/).

Other than the "inappropriately pessimistic" tone, is there anything in my post you disagree with on a factual basis? I do consider myself an optimist, by the way, because you almost have to be as a startup guy. So what you might consider "inappropriate pessimism" is realistic optimism to me. I do wish your initiative to succeed and it is a lot more promising than the government-funded campaigns we've seen. I'm highly skeptical about government intervention because it rarely (if ever) works. Private initiatives like Appsterdam do have potential, though. In fact, I'm hoping to attend one of your meetings to see what all the fuzz is about.

[1] The Dutch people aren't very much inclined towards risk taking and entrepreneurialism, to say the least. Also, high taxes and business-unfriendly labour laws aren't helpful either. Contrary to the American Dream, we have a culture of applauding the average and consensus. We're keen on making money and sometimes prone to mass hysteria when speculating (e.g. the famous 17th century Tulip Mania and the more recent WorldOnline debacle), but the average Dutchman frowns on people that want to excel. A typical Dutch saying is "Doe maar gewoon, dan doe je al gek genoeg" (lose translation: "Just be normal and average, that is sufficiently special and crazy").

[2] E.g. the majority of the country is very negative about the EU and the Euro, famously voting against the very reasonable referendum on the European 'constitution' a few years back out of spite towards the political elite. These people live in a world where they think everything got more expensive since the introduction of the Euro, while in fact the opposite is true.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#86
post #65
post #34

Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (w…

Coming from Eindhoven I'am a bit jealous of the Startup community in Amsterdam. But still I would not really consider working in Amsterdam. The 1:20 hour single trip commute by train would take the best of me.

Seems like we should do a local HN meetup, because all of a sudden lots of Dutch hackers are coming out of the woodworks, with you and Skrebbel from Eindhoven and me in Tilburg (~25 minutes by train). Anyway, the environment for startups in Eindhoven is great. There is the Technical University, Philips and a number of technical spinoffs from these two places, including a lot of startups. Although I'm highly skeptical of this ranking, the fact that the region around Eindhoven is ranked as the "smartest region in the world" is a good indicator[1].

[1] See http://www.intelligentcommunity.org/index.php?src=news&r... and http://www.brainportdevelopment.nl/en/news/brainport-eindhov..., although I tend to take this "studies" and competitions with a healthy grain of salt.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#87
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it growing as a hub exactly? Did you actually read the article? ;) Luckily Appsterdam is not limited to Amsterdam. This isn't a pissing match between Dutch cities. It's about international branding. Appschede doesn't sound as good. Most people associate Delft with pottery. Americans have never heard of Utrecht. As far as most people are concerned, these places are features of Amsterdam. But if you're in the Ne…

One initiative doesn't make it a hub. If you found a startup in Holland, there are plenty of other cities which are suitable to found. The distances are sort of close, so the reasons why you HQ your startup in the valley are not exactly applicable to Amsterdam, you get the same benefits in most other big cities with talent. You are right it is not a pissing contest, but you mention exactly what Americans (or other fo…

[deleted]

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#88
post #36
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The startup scene _is_ growing into a hub actually, although some elements (e.g. capital) are hard, others easier (hiring, advice). That feels like an honor coming from you, thanks. Have you been in Amsterdam often?

How is it growing in a hub exactly? Where do all founders of successful startups hang out? There are some startups out there in Amsterdam, but there are many in other cities too (Utrecht, Delft, Enschede etc.). Amsterdam is definitely not a clear winner as location to found a startup among cities in Holland.

There's Stikk (stikk.nl), de Balie, Singel 146, Rokin75, TNW crowd (incl thenextweb.com, twittercounter, paydro), de Waag and Pakhuis de Zwijger and of course Sofa just getting bought (they leave but still... ;-), not to mention all the different places where startups are renting offices together (marvia, cardcloud). I've seen quite a few awesome things (products, people and deals) in A'dam and it's only getting better.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#89
post #42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

expect to pay over 50% on income tax alone No. If you earn 50K you pay about 16K in income taxes; if you earn 100K you pay about 43K. (For tax percentages and discounts see http://financieel.infonu.nl/belasting/60892-inkomstenbelasti... . I ignored all special cases.)

Thanks for the clarification. Granted, I oversimplified. The 52% is for everything over ~50K. As a business owner, however, you pay this income tax on top of 20%/25% corporate taxes. If you make a 100.000 euro profit and extract it from your business the company pays 20% corporate tax (that is the rate below 200.000 euro profit), leaving you with 80,000. That remainder is taxed as follows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

"The 52% is for everything over ~50K. As a business owner, however, you pay this income tax on top of 20%/25% corporate taxes."

No you don't. You pay 52% wage tax in the upper bracket, but in that case it's not taxed for corporate tax since it's an expense. The companies profit is taxed at 23%, and if you pay dividend to the shareholder(s), then they pay another 22 or so percent dividend tax, making the total tax pressure roughly equal to the top income tax bracket, leaving aside special arrangements like starter deductions, WBSO subsidies etc.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#90
post #89
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the clarification. Granted, I oversimplified. The 52% is for everything over ~50K. As a business owner, however, you pay this income tax on top of 20%/25% corporate taxes. If you make a 100.000 euro profit and extract it from your business the company pays 20% corporate tax (that is the rate below 200.000 euro profit), leaving you with 80,000. That remainder is taxed as follows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

"The 52% is for everything over ~50K. As a business owner, however, you pay this income tax on top of 20%/25% corporate taxes." No you don't. You pay 52% wage tax in the upper bracket, but in that case it's not taxed for corporate tax since it's an expense. The companies profit is taxed at 23%, and if you pay dividend to the shareholder(s), then they pay another 22 or so percent dividend tax, making the total tax pre…

OK, this is why I don't do my own taxes!
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