Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#381

Post by mdoms » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #123

ghusbands wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody can know for sure. Whether or not they were secretly mining data from AWS servers, they would say they don't and nobody on the outside would be able to tell. Even if it's unlikely, many people are simply choosing not to risk it.

This is at the level of a conspiracy theory right now, and one that doesn't even make any sense. If it were true that Amazon were taking sneaky peeks at data inside AWS related to retailers, and this became public, AWS as a business would be done. The loud banging you'd be hearing would be the door closing as the last customer exited, followed by all the engineering staff who work on AWS as they see the writing on th…

> This is at the level of a conspiracy theory right now, and one that doesn't even make any sense.

It's a conspiracy theory to believe that a company whose policy it is to not access data that is on their own platform, who was caught accessing said data, would violate such a policy?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#382

Post by lupire » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #376

judge2020 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws. I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that the U.S. isn't enforcing its antitrust laws, the DOJ certainly opens investigations against these conglomerates, they just don't take them to court, so there might not be enough info for the DOJ to think there's a case. We don't know the full story for any of these cases a…

> The problem is probably that the DOJ doesn't like to bring cases against people in they they don't have hard evidence and a high likelihood to succeed in their prosecution It has nothing to do with a lack of evidence and everything to do with not biting the hands that feed the boss's next campaign fund.

The DOJ, SEC, etc have an army of non-politically-appointed civil servants.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#383

Post by lupire » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

savanaly wrote: post #379

ska wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To abuse this analogy further - if they also put signs for their owns stores in front of the other stores signage, or redesign the mall to direct people away from the competitors - that seems less fine.

What if there's multiple other malls just across the street? As is the case in online retail. Even easier than crossing the street, to be honest, just click that second result in Google instead of the first. Is it so hard to admit that Amazon's customers are using them because their offering is great and not because of lack of alternatives?

That's irrelevant to charges of anti-competitive behavior

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#384

Post by dv_dt » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

mountainb wrote: post #297

awillen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just isn't really true. It depends on what type of product you're selling, but there are a huge number of independent ecommerce stores that do extremely well. I sell dog treat mix (coopersdogtreats.com) - I do much better both in terms of margins and overall sales on my own website (with traffic coming primarily via paid FB ads) than on Amazon. That's not even including other huge marketplaces like walmart.com,…

What people kind of miss is that outside of FBA it's the actual logistics companies that are handling the logistics for all merchant fulfilled Amazon sales. The normal logistics companies are also handling a ton of the work involved with getting goods to FBA. There are lots of 3PL solutions that can deliver FBA style performance at a lower cost to the seller. There are other advantages to not using Amazon as a seller…

I've seen at least one other comment saying this, and not that I don't believe you, but can you name several companies that do that and come within say 150% of Amazon? Last time I really dug into this was years ago and nothing was really close then, maybe it's better now?

My other question to comments : > What are the Amazon level logistics and delivery service that is available to a smaller retailer? I see some nascent choices but they really aren’t that close.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#385

Post by judge2020 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #378

judge2020 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Costco does sell Vodka and wouldn't have made that product if Vodka sold 10% of what it actually sells. Because Amazon sells literally everything, is it a crime to do what Costco does, just on a bigger scale? The only end-goal that would actually solve the problem fairly is if companies couldn't sell first-party products (or products from a partner where they have a vested interest in) in their store. If you just…

This is not about making a home brand. Amazon can literally look at the sells data of e.g. some seller which sells Nike Air Jordans (as a stupid example) and go and source those themselves and offer them (the exact same brand) cheaper than the seller, because they have all the sales data. Now how would Cosco do this?

Costco also looks at sales data for competing products (within Costco) and chooses to make house brands of those products.

It's not like Amazon sees sales data from someone's shopify site if people choose to sell on both brand.com and amazon.com.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#386

Post by IncRnd » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #303

jasallen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

> But Amazon is also a marketplace Meanwhile, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 "Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court" It seems both regulators and Amazon want whether or not it's a marketplace to go both ways whenever it's convenient.

You're misreading the ruling. The ruling is for state law not federal and says the following, "The Appellate Court didn’t agree with Amazon’s stance. It noted that the product had been listed on Amazon, was stored in an Amazon warehouse, had payment facilitated by Amazon, and shipped it out in Amazon packaging, proving it to have a hand in getting it to Bolger and thus liable under California law." So, this stance will change depending on the product and what law is being alleged to have been broken.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#387

Post by judge2020 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #246

Manuel_D wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not understanding the distinction here. Costco and Amazon both sell company-brand products, alongside non-company products. Costco and Amazon collect and analyze sales data from the sale of both company and non-company products.

> Costco and Amazon collect and analyze sales data from the sale of both company and non-company products. It's similar, although personally I think the relationship between the companies is meaningfully different: Costco purchases product from manufacturers, and may choose to source product from other manufacturers (including under its own brand name). It uses it's own sales data to make this decision. Amazon acts a…

Despite this I don't see how the case is that Amazon is being anti competitive while Costco isn't - just because they purchase and resell inventory doesn't mean Costco (or Walmart or Sams Club etc) doesn't hold the same power over their product suppliers that Amazon does to do data science on their sales to determine what new products to make in-house.

Plus, walmart is now a marketplace as well. This overpriced GPU is 'Sold & shipped by Monoprice Inc'. It's only a matter of time before Walmart commits the same anticompetitive acts as Amazon using Marketplace data. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Zotac-NVIDIA-GeForce-RTX-3080-Gra...

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#388

Post by elliekelly » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #382

elliekelly wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is probably that the DOJ doesn't like to bring cases against people in they they don't have hard evidence and a high likelihood to succeed in their prosecution It has nothing to do with a lack of evidence and everything to do with not biting the hands that feed the boss's next campaign fund.

The DOJ, SEC, etc have an army of non-politically-appointed civil servants.

And yet not a single non-politically-appointed civil servant at the DOJ has the actual authority to bring an action against a big company like Amazon. When the DOJ brings a major antitrust case against a major American company there is no chance it didn't get the Attorney General's, and probably the President's, sign-off first. None. Zero.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#389

Post by google234123 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

cowpig wrote: post #374

idiotsecant wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should walmart be able to produce and offer generic versions of brand name items on their shelves? Why or why not?

I don't think they're similar. There are many stores in my neighborhood, but there's only one google, only one app store on my phone, and only one Amazon. I also think the degree to which the platform can exploit data related to producers (and consumers) is totally different with online marketplaces.

One Amazon? There many competing sites on the internet.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#390

Post by jiveturkey » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

nataz wrote: post #302

The most interesting part of the HN discussion is not about the definition of what Amazon is doing, but the occasional misunderstanding of how large brick and mortar retail businesses operate at scale (see: buying shelf space/payment dependant on sales/etc). There are lots of folks on here that understand what Amazon is doing, less who understand retail businesses mechanisms. I'm not sure what Amazon is doing is lega…

You seem to have a limited understanding as well.

Unlike other retailers, who are front and center that they own the sales data (some even sell it back to you, the 3p merchant), Amazon explicitly states they will not use that data (except in aggregate). Bezos' statement that he cannot say for sure if the policy has been violated is an admission that it has, and is even encouraged. It's very possible and easy in fact to enforce a chinese wall around that data. That they have chosen not to -- that the data is possibly available at all -- means that they expect successful PMs to use it on the down low.

It's clear they have this policy so as to attract merchants. So to turn around and violate it is a pretty severe issue.

Second, Amazon is in a position to actually produce or re-brand products under their own very strong brand. Unlike other retailers whose store brand is always the discount and less desirable option, and generally not taking away sales from the premium product.