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Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

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Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#251
Every single discussion around this revolves around the same facile comparison with retailers, and I'm fucking sick of it, so I'll lay it out in a top level comment one last time.

These are the following ways in which Amazon is not like a (WalMart, Costco, insert retailer of choice):

* Physical retailers do not have access to the same breadth and depth of data that Amazon does. For example, retailers have no reasonable nor accurate methods of determining which advertising methods bring in the most leads. They have no idea how many people look at the product without buying it. They have no idea who puts in their cart and then lets it sit there for days on end. They have no idea who puts an item into their wishlist. They have no idea which people look at it, then come back a week later and buy it. They have no idea how many competing items, let alone which ones, the buyer compared it with before buying. They can't calculate conversion rates, nor satisfaction rates. Maybe if they're lucky, they can track returns down to the purchaser (because they might require a receipt to return), but they likely don't know much about who you are or why you're returning it.

* Retailers can't notice you looked at a product without buying it, then follow you around to your bank, your barber, your job, your home, relentlessly trying to convince you to buy it.

* Retailers can't look at your general preferences across thousands of unrelated products, perform machine learning methods to determine your likelihood of conversion for different brands and products, and then rearrange their shelves specifically for you to optimize visibility of their products for maximum profitability.

* Perhaps most importantly, retailers always have an incentive to sell their inventory. They buy it, they invest labor into presenting it, they pay holding costs to keep it in stock, they relentlessly optimize within difficult physical constraints to provide visibility to its location on the shelves, and they advertise its existence to the public. Amazon has none of these costs or incentives. If they decide to tank the listing of a competing item, they bear no cost in doing so. They are being paid for every single cost incurred, and they're making money off your stuff in FBA even when it doesn't sell. Even pure consignment stores will regularly decline to consign products that they don't think they can sell or don't think they can make enough money on to cover their costs. Amazon has no such incentive.

Does Procter and Gamble hate the fact that Costco can position Kirkland Signature right next to their products? Of course they do...but they still sell their product. The same can't be said for many private sellers of niche products when Amazon launches an Amazon Basics competitor. Their listings get tanked, their recommendations disappear, their sales effectively drop to zero almost overnight, and if they made the bad decision to use FBA, they're stuck paying holding costs and eventually shipback or disposal costs in order to exit the market.

Amazon is uniquely positioned to take advantage of marketplace data in ways that retailers could never feasibly do, and they bear no costs (and may even augment their profits) when they put their merchants out of business. They absolutely need to have their marketplace either shut down or completely separated from their retail space by legally regulated means.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#252

Thought exercise because I legitimately struggle with this. Is this fundamentally different than Costco using sales data to choose which Kirkland products to launch/sell? If so, how? If not, then why do we not pursue Costco with the same gusto as Amazon? To me this behavior by Amazon seems worse, but I can't figure out why.

Costco launching/selling products with own sales data is one thing.

To make it clear, Here you should consider Amazon.com different entity than Amazon Seller Account. Now would you sell on amazon.com if amazon.com leaks your data to "amazon seller account" owner to boost his sales of a similar product, which you sell.

Moral thing is, Amazon seller division who deals with product directly sold by Amazon, should never have access to the data of other sellers.Fullstop.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#253

Thought exercise because I legitimately struggle with this. Is this fundamentally different than Costco using sales data to choose which Kirkland products to launch/sell? If so, how? If not, then why do we not pursue Costco with the same gusto as Amazon? To me this behavior by Amazon seems worse, but I can't figure out why.

You need to consider whether there's a difference between physical mail and Email (esp. Gmail)? And whether Google's business model is monopolistic because its 'software' over the internet.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not understanding the distinction here. Costco and Amazon both sell company-brand products, alongside non-company products. Costco and Amazon collect and analyze sales data from the sale of both company and non-company products.

I think the difference they are getting at is something akin to this. In one situation you run a stall and buy products from people to sell at that stall. At some point you use what you've learned doing this to sell your own product. In the other, you don't buy anything from anybody. Instead, you rent out a stall for other people to sell things from. You then watch the stall and use that information to open your own…

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Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

This explanation makes the most sense to me, but there is something that you are leaving out. Not only is Amazon a marketplace, but it is THE marketplace. Amazon has an effective monopoly on small-seller logistics and marketplace services in the United States (and many other places), soup-to-nuts. If you are anything other than a massive corporation, any manufacturer that chooses not to sell through Amazon and utiliz…

This just isn't really true. It depends on what type of product you're selling, but there are a huge number of independent ecommerce stores that do extremely well.

I sell dog treat mix (coopersdogtreats.com) - I do much better both in terms of margins and overall sales on my own website (with traffic coming primarily via paid FB ads) than on Amazon.

That's not even including other huge marketplaces like walmart.com, Chewy, Etsy, etc.

Amazon doesn't have a monopoly on small-seller logistics - I'm about to move all of my logistics over to a 3PL, and there are plenty that will cost-effectively work with startups (ShipBob, Shipmonk, etc. - just Google "ecommerce 3PL" and you'll see what I mean).

How much Amazon plays into your business obviously depends on the category, but the idea that it's impossible to compete in ecommerce unless you're on Amazon is an easily disproven myth.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody can know for sure. Whether or not they were secretly mining data from AWS servers, they would say they don't and nobody on the outside would be able to tell. Even if it's unlikely, many people are simply choosing not to risk it.

This is at the level of a conspiracy theory right now, and one that doesn't even make any sense. If it were true that Amazon were taking sneaky peeks at data inside AWS related to retailers, and this became public, AWS as a business would be done. The loud banging you'd be hearing would be the door closing as the last customer exited, followed by all the engineering staff who work on AWS as they see the writing on th…

I don't see how this would be fundamentally different from what Facebook did with WhatsApp data ?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#257
Isn't it sad that all our tech giants are guilty of anti-competitive behavior? You know, things that are supposedly illegal and should have been stopped by government regulators long ago?

It makes me wonder if these American businesses are really so different from the likes of Tencent, Huawei, etc and their ties to the Chinese government. Everyone knows those companies are only as big as they are because of government support. Can you really say that isn't the case with Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, etc?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not understanding the distinction here. Costco and Amazon both sell company-brand products, alongside non-company products. Costco and Amazon collect and analyze sales data from the sale of both company and non-company products.

You have the wrong mental model. Amazon isn’t Costco. Amazon is a shopping mall that has access to its tenants’ sales information and also owns an anchor store in the same mall. Costco can determine that Best Brand shoes sell in its stores and decide to source shoes themselves and stop carrying Best Brand. Amazon can determine that the Footlocker in their mall is making a killing selling Best Brand shoes and either s…

This explanation doesn't explain the difference to me at all. Costco can see that vodka sells well, so they can make Kirkland brand vodka. They control the layout of the store, so they can change the layout so people see Kirkland brand first when they get to the liquor section. They know the pricing of other vodkas and which ones sell well, so they can source Kirkland vodka at an ideal price point.

None of what you've described about Amazon differentiates it from Costco at all.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#259

Thought exercise because I legitimately struggle with this. Is this fundamentally different than Costco using sales data to choose which Kirkland products to launch/sell? If so, how? If not, then why do we not pursue Costco with the same gusto as Amazon? To me this behavior by Amazon seems worse, but I can't figure out why.

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