EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#811

Post by aabbcc1241 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 1:42 AM UTC

perfobotto wrote: post #765

jpttsn wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurants sell a bundled experience. The use of their silverware is part of what I buy. You could argue that the restaurant shouldn’t be a gatekeeper. Other parties could let me enjoy a cheaper meal, competing to offer the most discounted silverware. My $10 burger could be $9 if I could rent a paper plate from a third party and eat on the floor. After all, the restaurant shouldn’t abuse it’s monopoly, right?

What are you talking about. A restaurant doesn’t have the power to steer an economy of billions of dollars worldwide (the phone app market) . Apple and google do. Do you understand the risk for countries to allow one single private company to have complete control over the life/jobs of hundreds of thousands of citizens (app developers) that could be just destroyed by the whim of one of these two companies? It’s the p…

If the "app developer" doesn't feel fair to work for apple app store / google play store, they could work for other android app store or, they could work for the web.

Even there are many Apple App developer on the world doesn't mean they cannot choose to left.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#812

Post by aabbcc1241 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

perfobotto wrote: post #798

jpttsn wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t feel entitled to controlling any company unless I own stock. If I build my career on a supplier company I don’t control, that’s my problem. EU politicians seem to disagree. Mostly (I bet) to protect their own.

Well that’s not how it works. When a company controls a very important piece of something society starts to rely on (oil, information, communication ... etc), regulation is not just preferable . It is NECESSARY.

Couldn't the society adopt alternatives on their own if they feel it unfair?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#813

Post by aabbcc1241 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

jpttsn wrote: post #733

eloff wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have a monopoly. Now if one restaurant chain controlled 50% of the market, suddenly you've got good reason to treat them as a platform and regulate them accordingly.

Once I’m in he restaurant, it has a monopoly. The same way Apple has a monopoly once I’m in the App Store. Apple is the only seller of apps on my Apple phone. Burger King is the only seller/provider of plates and cutlery at my local Burger King.

But Apple phone is not your only choice

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#814

Post by aabbcc1241 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

eloff wrote: post #740

jpttsn wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once I’m in he restaurant, it has a monopoly. The same way Apple has a monopoly once I’m in the App Store. Apple is the only seller of apps on my Apple phone. Burger King is the only seller/provider of plates and cutlery at my local Burger King.

The difference is, if you don't like it you can leave the restaurant and choose any other. You have no lock in. Once you've bought an iOS device, you can't buy apps anywhere else. Even if you forget the sunk cost you just have two providers to choose from.

You can use webapp with almost any modern device, without Apple or Google's app stores

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#815

Post by noptd » Mon, May 03, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

FredPret wrote: post #217

thayne wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I think the key here, and probably a big reason Spotify went after Apple and not Google, is that on iOS you have to use Apple's app store. You can't distribute your app using your own infrastructure, or an alternative app store even if you want to.

That fact is key to the advantage that the iPhone ecosystem offers. I, and millions of users like me, like the closed garden. I’m effectively outsourcing the duties implied by caveat emptor to Apple. I don’t have the time/inclination to check the safety & honesty of each app developer.

> I, and millions of users like me, like the closed garden.

Citation needed.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#816

Post by noptd » Mon, May 03, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

sixstringtheory wrote: post #558

fastball wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my stance has always been that companies should exist to: 1. deliver value. 2. capture a fraction of that value. I think it is pretty clear in most cases that 30% is well above the value Apple is actually delivering with their App Store. It's not like Apple is building the apps for other people. You still have to build the app entirely on your own, the only thing Apple is doing is letting you distribute your ap…

> I think it is pretty clear in most cases that 30% is well above the value Apple is actually delivering with their App Store. You’re entitled to your opinion. And maybe it is not valuable to you. But I doubt you even know the costs to run the service so my opinion is that you are speaking from a place of ignorance. Part of the value of the service is that you don’t have to go and build it yourself. I’m going to bet…

> My opinion is this will get much worse.

I'd argue that it will get much worse specifically because of the false sense of security Apple provides to users through the AppStore.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/11/app-store-scam-apps-how-to-sp...

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#817

Post by w0m » Mon, May 03, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

LaMarseillaise wrote: post #525

zibzab wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should add, the ruling is not really about the validity of the 30% fee. What EU seems to argue is this: 1. Apple is in phone business, Spotify music. So far so good... 2. Then apple wants to get into the music business too. Now they have an unfair advantage since Spotify must pay 30% to apple while apple music "pays" 0%. So apple use their dominance in one area (phones) to get an advantage in a totally different area…

> Now they have an unfair advantage since Spotify must pay 30% to apple while apple music "pays" 0%. I think this does not account for the opportunity cost. If Apple Music competes with Spotify, then Apple Music implicitly pays the 30% fee of the next best alternative. If Spotify operates at a loss with the fee, and Apple Music is otherwise an identical business, then Apple should prefer Spotify - it makes more money…

That ignores the 'operate at a loss to kill competition then jack up prices/lower quality' strategy that the EU is directly trying to fight here. It's a common trope; Monopolies are great for the consumer; until they aren't held accountable.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#818

Post by breakfastduck » Mon, May 03, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #487

bzzzt wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What always baffles me, truly leaves me flabbergasted and confused, is.....who is going to force you to use any other app store other than the Apple Store?? Think of the new privacy controls: Facebook doesn't like them. So they open their own iOS store, circumventing all Apple rules concerning privacy labels and do not track status.

While I see the problem, I'm prepared to argue that it should have never been Apple's job to fix the inherent problems with Facebook. If an app is so bad for your privacy that you can only install it through a special dedicated app store.....then maybe that's enough to put people off? And even if it isn't.....well, I can't help it if people want to have shitty facebook tracking them. I'd definitely prefer that they h…

I think it's pretty clear that the average person isn't actually aware of how invasive the data collection is, and their OS provider putting safeguards on the most common devices (phones) is a good thing imo.

If you want a general purpose computer, buy one. An iPhone isn't for that.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#819

Post by gambiting » Mon, May 03, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #818

gambiting wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I see the problem, I'm prepared to argue that it should have never been Apple's job to fix the inherent problems with Facebook. If an app is so bad for your privacy that you can only install it through a special dedicated app store.....then maybe that's enough to put people off? And even if it isn't.....well, I can't help it if people want to have shitty facebook tracking them. I'd definitely prefer that they h…

I think it's pretty clear that the average person isn't actually aware of how invasive the data collection is, and their OS provider putting safeguards on the most common devices (phones) is a good thing imo. If you want a general purpose computer, buy one. An iPhone isn't for that.

Well, again, the discussion isn't about an iPhone being a general purpose computer or not. It's about what happens if two sides want to engage in an otherwise completely legal business transaction(company A making apps for iOS and wanting to sell them to person B), and Apple saying "no, actually, we need to give you permission before you can do business together, and actually we'll have 30% cut from that thanks". That's where the issue is. Apple can safeguard their devices to the maximum possible extent - that is, to the point where they do not stand in the way of legitimate business transactions happening.

I've used this comparison elsewhere - it's as if a company X was making car mats that fit Mercedes models - and Mercedes wanted not only to have a say into whether company X should be allowed to do this, but also wanted a 30% cut from every transactions. Literally decades ago we made laws to prohibit manufacturers from doing exactly this. The question being asked now is - why not software platforms? What makes them so special? And yes, as a software programmer, I understand the technical issues behind this. And those issues can be presented to the courts - but as a society we need to decide if this is something we want to allow or not, this is what's happening now.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#820

Post by Sakos » Tue, May 04, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #809

Sakos wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple holds a gigantic market in their grasp and by controlling it so tightly and by forcing everyone to use their billing, they give the customers what they want. Sorry, this is irrelevant. If people want a monopoly, that doesn't change the effects of that monopoly existing.

It's not even close to a monopoly

That was not the point I was making.