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Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

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Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#151

Post by jackson1442 »

offtop5 wrote: post #97
shiftpgdn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New York Times does this also. As far as I can tell it's literally impossible to cancel a subscription. I had to close the card attached to my account.

They way to do this is to run the subscription though something like Google Play. Then you cancel it on Google's side. Be wary if a company avoids Google. For example Tinder started forcing users to subscribe directly instead of using Google. This is because most people cancel almost immediately since once you subscribe you find all your matches are bots. The entire purpose is to make it just hard enough so you think…

This is one of the few things that actually makes me happy with the closed ecosystem of the App Store on iOS. There's virtually no risk with subscriptions in there- they can all be canceled in a few clicks in the Subscriptions section of your Apple ID. And if something's straight up a scam or an accidental (but unconsumed) purchase, you can request a refund from Apple with rather little friction.

First-party trials annoy me since cancelation is instant, unlike trials from third-party apps (those cancel after the trial period if you cancel during). Fortunately, you can go to Report A Problem and just say you didn't mean to have the subscription charged and they'll refund it as long as it's a few days from the charge date.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#152

Post by bogwog »

A common one is fake consent popups for system notifications.

Websites need to ask for consent before sending system notifications via the Notifications API. If a user declines, that website is blocked from asking again (for obvious reasons)

But many websites cheat this by showing a fake consent popup designed to mimic what the browser would show. If a user clicks "Decline" on the fake popup, the website won't show the real one to avoid being blocked. So the next time you visit the site, they'll be able to show you that popup again as many times as they want.

If a user finally clicks "Accept" on the fake popup (out of frustration probably) then they'll show the real popup. To most people, seeing two popups might seem like a glitch, and will just mindlessly click "Accept" twice.

The only way to circumvent this is to click "Accept" on the fake popup, and then click "Decline" on the real one. 99% of people aren't going to know how to do that.

...I'd post this myself as a comment, but I don't like that it's asking for so much personal information (full name, email, state, city, phone, etc)

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#153

Post by shubik22 »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #44
dmix wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to cancel a $99/m sub. Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no one ever picked up the number. I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious bullshit scam.

New York Times does this also. As far as I can tell it's literally impossible to cancel a subscription. I had to close the card attached to my account.

NY Magazine too. After renewing my subscription at 2x the original rate I paid, they made it incredibly difficult to cancel. When I called their customer support, they told me I had purchased my subscription through a third party so they couldn’t cancel it for me and I’d have to contact the third party.

Me: what’s their contact info? Agent: inquiries@nymag.com Me: This is a third party but they have an NY Mag email address? Agent: Yes. Me: ... How are they a third party then? Agent: One second, I’m transferring you to my supervisor.

Nothing turns me off a brand I like and want to support more than 1) autorenewals at 2x your intro price and 2) making cancellations both arbitrarily difficult and insulting.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#154

Post by ykat7 »

fpig wrote: post #134
rawtxapp wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just use Privacy's virtual cards to sign up for services. If a service doesn't let you cancel, just cancel the card itself. That's what I've been doing. Of course, it's a different story if you signed some kind of contract, but for the pay-montly kind of things, it's a no brainer. You also keep your real cards number private in case the service gets hacked and Privacy doesn't seem to check the name, so you can give a…

This looks like a great service! Edit: crap, looks like it's US-only :/

If you're in the UK, EU, New Zealand, Australia, or Singapore, I found out yesterday that Wise (TransferWise) customers get 3 virtual cards free of charge [1][2].

I'd be interested to hear about any other UK/EU firms offering similar.

[1] https://wise.com/gb/blog/shop-safely-virtually-anywhere

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27006326

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#155

Post by ratww »

jokoon wrote: post #105

I'm really curious how you can outlaw dark patterns.

The same way one can outlaw murder and other crimes. Not sure I understand the question.

Outlawing means it can still happen, but you have to enforce, investigate, catch the perpetrator, go to trial, and punish in a way. Or just apply a fine that you can appeal.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#156

Post by heavyset_go »

jackson1442 wrote: post #151
offtop5 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They way to do this is to run the subscription though something like Google Play. Then you cancel it on Google's side. Be wary if a company avoids Google. For example Tinder started forcing users to subscribe directly instead of using Google. This is because most people cancel almost immediately since once you subscribe you find all your matches are bots. The entire purpose is to make it just hard enough so you think…

This is one of the few things that actually makes me happy with the closed ecosystem of the App Store on iOS. There's virtually no risk with subscriptions in there- they can all be canceled in a few clicks in the Subscriptions section of your Apple ID. And if something's straight up a scam or an accidental (but unconsumed) purchase, you can request a refund from Apple with rather little friction. First-party trials a…

> This is one of the few things that actually makes me happy with the closed ecosystem of the App Store on iOS.

And yet there are scams that are costing users $5 million a year, or more, on the iOS App Store[1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26794228

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#157

Post by bogwog »

Mixtape wrote: post #71
lima wrote: post #51

Slack has a fun dark pattern - they purposefully remove functionality from their web app to make you install their native app. The web app has a workspace switcher sidebar, but it only appears on ChromeOS, where you can't install the native client. https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/144258/slacks-we...

Reddit is just as guilty of this. If you want to see all the comments on a thread on their mobile site, you're pushed to install their official app and presumably create an account when doing so. As far as I can tell, the best workaround is to use the desktop site.

And on iOS at least, whenever you visit the site you'll get a popup that blocks the page with two options: continue in mobile app, or continue in safari.

It's basically "install our shitty app, or keep using the web version?", except it's worded and displayed in a confusing/misleading way with what seems to be an attempt to mimic a system dialog.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#158

Post by nmca »

amluto wrote: post #126
jrockway wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm highly in favor of making this illegal. My credit card expired and I switched my NYT subscription from through their website to through Apple (so I could cancel), and they sent my account to collections! Working with the collections agency to get it removed was easy, however. I guess the law that I would be in favor of is twofold: 1) You must be able to cancel subscriptions from the same website that you created…

I would be in favor of a different approach: a merchant should not, under any circumstances, be able to remove money from an account, charge a credit card, or otherwise take money from someone without the explicit authorization of the customer. In this context, explicit means one of two things: 1. The customer intentionally authorized that specific transaction. A specific transaction means one transaction. If a merch…

So I love this, but I imagine that all those VC funded subscription-for-x do not... (dollar shave, etc etc)

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#159

Post by elithrar »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #44
dmix wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to cancel a $99/m sub. Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no one ever picked up the number. I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious bullshit scam.

New York Times does this also. As far as I can tell it's literally impossible to cancel a subscription. I had to close the card attached to my account.

If your billing address is in California, the NYT do let you cancel online.

They intentionally make it extremely high friction.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#160

Post by bogwog »

novok wrote: post #132
pcarolan wrote: post #121

I think a more effective route forward here is for places like YC to set standards for their portfolio companies. Only the strongest investors can do this, but once they do, it will setup a new playing field and the YC brand could mean 'no dark patterns here' in the way that buying an Apple product signifies quality hardware and privacy. It could act as an 'integrity' label that companies purchasing software would us…

Consumers do not know what YC is, and I'm not sure if YC wants to become a consumer brand certification.

I used this site for years without knowing what YC was.

EDIT: also, I still don't 100% know what it is. Afaik, it's like shark tank but IRL for people in silicon valley.

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