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SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

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Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#31

Post by briefcomment »

shadowgovt wrote: post #23
tediousdemise wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or walking around damaged, and they don’t know it yet. Didn’t it take us thousands of years to realize lead was poisonous?

It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.

This makes the analogy even more appropriate. We know the spike protein is harmful in some amount, but we think a small enough amount produced forever should be safe. Maybe we'll learn otherwise.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#32

Post by rrss »

briefcomment wrote: post #31
shadowgovt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.

This makes the analogy even more appropriate. We know the spike protein is harmful in some amount, but we think a small enough amount produced forever should be safe. Maybe we'll learn otherwise.

> small enough amount produced forever should be safe

does 'forever' modify 'produced' or 'should be safe'? if the former, what produces a small amount of the spike protein forever (continuing, not just a small amount one time)?

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#33

Post by krona »

maxerickson wrote: post #25
beagle3 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers. The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus. What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all co…

We are getting close to 2% of the planet having a confirmed case. New influenza vaccines (using cell lines) were approved after use in 15,000 people, ~10 years ago: https://www.fiercepharma.com/vaccines/novartis-receives-fda-... Are you overestimating the safety testing done on other vaccines? Of course these are the first widely used vaccines for corona viruses and use new technologies to boot, so there's a lot more…

Cell culture technology has been in use for decades around the world for many other vaccines, going back 35 years at least (e.g. rabies/polio).

Genetic/DNA vaccines are new.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#34

Post by Godel_unicode »

beagle3 wrote: post #21
retrac wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It causes the body to produce it in a limited, fixed quantity in proportion to the number of viable RNA strands that make it into a cell, largely localized at the injection site. Just a guess but this probably means its risk is extremely limited. The wild virus causes this protein to be produced without check. It wouldn't just be the mRNA vaccines, anyway. The viral vector ones, as well as the inactivated virus, and…

Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers. The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus. What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all co…

Myocarditis is significantly under-diagnosed in young adults, but is believed to be on the order of 10 cases per 100,00 per year in the population.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#35

Post by yborg »

wpasc wrote: post #27
fnordpiglet wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccine instructs cells to produce a piece of protein from the spike. There’s no such thing as “a” spike protein, the spike is a structure of proteins that enable a lot of functions for the virus. They choose a piece of protein from the structure that’s antigenic then encode the mRNA to produce that. The mRNA is delivered into the cell by the lipid transport and the cell picks up the instruction and produces the…

From the wikipedia for Pfizer, the vaccine supposedly produces a full length spike protein [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...

No.

From that link "...two proline substitutions (K986P and V987P, designated "2P") that cause the spike to adopt a prefusion-stabilized conformation reducing the membrane fusion ability, increasing expression and stimulating neutralizing antibodies..."

It's a modified version of the spike protein designed as an antibody target, not to identically replicate the spike protein function.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#36

Post by yborg »

briefcomment wrote: post #31
shadowgovt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.

This makes the analogy even more appropriate. We know the spike protein is harmful in some amount, but we think a small enough amount produced forever should be safe. Maybe we'll learn otherwise.

Why do you think it is produced forever? The mRNA quickly degrades in the body and the injected cells will stop producing the spike protein. That's why there has to be a second injection.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#37

Post by sroussey »

dcow wrote: post #26
busyant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a legitimate question, so I don't know why it's being downvoted. Especially given the statement in the abstract of the paper that says, "We show here that S protein alone can damage vascular endothelial cells (ECs) in vitro and in vivo...." That being said, other people on this thread have provided reasonable mechanistic explanations as to why the vaccines would not have this effect, but I will also add we ha…

My partner developed inflammation (resembling gottron papules) on her knuckles a few weeks after receiving the first moderna dose. She now (few days later) has developed a shoulder rash where the vaccine was injected. It’s very curious.

I had a red area after the second shot on my shoulder, and so did my family members including cousins in other states.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#38

Post by Alex3917 »

dctoedt wrote: post #29
Alex3917 wrote: post #5

Yeah we've known this for over 10 years, zero surprise here. There were literally popular books written saying that this would be the mechanism of action for novel coronavirus pandemics (and how to treat them) years before the current pandemic even started, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Herbal-Antivirals-Remedies-Resistant-... Here is the direct quote from the book, published in 2013: "Once receptors on these cells ar…

Not my field (I can spell DNA) but this recent piece seemed of interest. FTA: "A large meta-analysis provides yet more evidence that ACE inhibitors and angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs) pose no harm to patients with COVID-19 and may even be associated with protective benefits, particularly in patients with hypertension." https://www.tctmd.com/news/continue-ace-inhibitorsarbs-covid...

Also women and smokers are underrepresented among hospitalized patients, which was the first confirmatory evidence from over a year ago.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#40

Post by treeman79 »

morsch wrote: post #4

"Endotheliitis is an immune response within the endothelium in blood vessels, in which they become inflamed. The condition can cause oedema of the surrounding tissue, including the stroma, and can cause irritation and pain. If it is within the cornea, it can result in permanent loss of vision. The condition can be caused by a number of factors, such as mumps and cytomegalovirus under certain circumstances." (Wikipedi…

My blood vessels get inflamed now and then. In Sjogrens world it’s known as a “flare”

It’s horrifically painful. There is no sympathy from anyone since you look normal.

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