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What can mRNA treat next?

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Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#71

Post by cannaceo »

lisper wrote: post #69
est31 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus a flu vaccine: > mRNA vaccines [...] generate a much stronger immune response than responses that are generated to the protein in a normal flu vaccine [...] > One limitation of the current flu vaccines is that they take about six months to develop, meaning scientists must choose which strains they think will be prevalent in the next flu season — even before the current one is over. So by the time the vaccines ar…

> by the time the vaccines are ready for distribution, a different strain may have emerged as the better target I have never understood this. How many strains are there? I thought there were only like 4 or so. Why don't they just do them all every year?

There are subtypes of each. Influenza A and B cause the seasonal flu. The subtypes are named by their hemagglutinin (H) and neuraminidase (N). E.g. H1N1, H5N9, etc.

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#72

Post by bqmjjx0kac »

coldcode wrote: post #30

mRNA seems almost like a biological programming language; if you can determine how to build a protein that triggers the body's immune system to attack something you want to destroy it's just a matter of design and testing. I wonder if you could build a real language that you could use to design a sequence and automate the testing.

Not quite what you're asking for, but check out CRN++ [0], a programming language built on chemical reaction networks (CRN).

[0]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.07430

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#73

Post by lisper »

cannaceo wrote: post #71
lisper wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by the time the vaccines are ready for distribution, a different strain may have emerged as the better target I have never understood this. How many strains are there? I thought there were only like 4 or so. Why don't they just do them all every year?

There are subtypes of each. Influenza A and B cause the seasonal flu. The subtypes are named by their hemagglutinin (H) and neuraminidase (N). E.g. H1N1, H5N9, etc.

OK, but that doesn't really answer my question.

Turns out the answer can be found here:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/types.htm

"There are four types of influenza viruses: A, B, C and D. Human influenza A and B viruses cause seasonal epidemics of disease (known as the flu season) almost every winter in the United States. Influenza A viruses are the only influenza viruses known to cause flu pandemics, i.e., global epidemics of flu disease. A pandemic can occur when a new and very different influenza A virus emerges that both infects people and has the ability to spread efficiently between people. Influenza type C infections generally cause mild illness and are not thought to cause human flu epidemics. Influenza D viruses primarily affect cattle and are not known to infect or cause illness in people."

"Influenza A viruses are divided into subtypes based on two proteins on the surface of the virus: hemagglutinin (H) and neuraminidase (N). There are 18 different hemagglutinin subtypes and 11 different neuraminidase subtypes (H1 through H18 and N1 through N11, respectively). While there are potentially 198 different influenza A subtype combinations, only 131 subtypes have been detected in nature. Current subtypes of influenza A viruses that routinely circulate in people include: A(H1N1) and A(H3N2). Influenza A subtypes can be further broken down into different genetic “clades” and “sub-clades.” See the “Influenza Viruses” graphic below for a visual depiction of these classifications."

So the answer is: 198 possible strains, 131 that actually occur. That explains why they have to pick and choose.

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#74

Post by azinman2 »

lisper wrote: post #69
est31 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus a flu vaccine: > mRNA vaccines [...] generate a much stronger immune response than responses that are generated to the protein in a normal flu vaccine [...] > One limitation of the current flu vaccines is that they take about six months to develop, meaning scientists must choose which strains they think will be prevalent in the next flu season — even before the current one is over. So by the time the vaccines ar…

> by the time the vaccines are ready for distribution, a different strain may have emerged as the better target I have never understood this. How many strains are there? I thought there were only like 4 or so. Why don't they just do them all every year?

They constantly mutate.

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#75

Post by sk1459 »

lukeschlather wrote: post #68

Scientifically and medically, vaccines seem extraordinarily exciting as a simple tool that can permanently eliminate problems. Treatments sound very exciting if I were running a business, but scientifically less so. I'm really glad that we've developed these great mRNA vaccines, and I hope that a business drive for recurring revenue doesn't chase people back to merely looking for treatments.

Permanently? I thought the standard of performance has become “reducing symptoms, maybe, we think, we’re not really sure. This is probably safe though”

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#76

Post by blumomo »

ecedeno wrote: post #53

Moderna has a public development pipeline. It shows they are working on, among other things, an HIV vaccine and vaccines/therapies for multiple types of cancer. https://www.modernatx.com/pipeline

HIV is a known virus for many decades. Now that mRNA was released in a rush, why would it suddenly cure HIV?

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#77

Post by azinman2 »

pseudosudoer wrote: post #17
GEBBL wrote: post #2

I am so excited for the prospect of mRNA treatments, especially in the field of auto immune conditions like multiple sclerosis. Those scientists are heroes.

I haven't read anything related to treating autoimmune diseases with mRNA, that would be quite exciting. Do you happen to have a reference for this? I have Ulcerative Colitis, which is a form of an autoimmune disease. A vaccine as a cure would be a game changer.

But I thought we don’t really know what causes UC. Fungi? Bacteria? Genetic factors? Something else?

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#78

Post by azinman2 »

mchusma wrote: post #34
Steuard wrote: post #7

It's an indictment of something that we've had this amazing new tool for vaccine production in existence for a decade but we never even tried to use it for that until COVID because "vaccines typically don’t make much money" and "vaccines just aren’t that exciting" scientifically: "it’s nice and easy," to quote Rossi from the article. If it really does turn out that effective mRNA vaccines can be created in a straight…

Or focus on lowering costs. We learned in the pandemic how fundamentally broken the FDA is. There is no reason that things can't be faster that "operation warp speed" all the time. Or re-focus the monetary models around either markets or patient outcomes. Right now, medicine is not a market, it's a strange game. The most money that can be made is finding a treatment that may provide a modest increased benefit over wh…

> There is no reason that things can't be faster that "operation warp speed" all the time.

Because money. Operation warp speed started mass manufacturing at the same time as clinical trials. 70% of drugs fail the 3rd stage of trials, so that would be a hugely wasteful endeavor to parallelize this when failure is the norm.

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#79

Post by akira2501 »

mchusma wrote: post #34
Steuard wrote: post #7

It's an indictment of something that we've had this amazing new tool for vaccine production in existence for a decade but we never even tried to use it for that until COVID because "vaccines typically don’t make much money" and "vaccines just aren’t that exciting" scientifically: "it’s nice and easy," to quote Rossi from the article. If it really does turn out that effective mRNA vaccines can be created in a straight…

Or focus on lowering costs. We learned in the pandemic how fundamentally broken the FDA is. There is no reason that things can't be faster that "operation warp speed" all the time. Or re-focus the monetary models around either markets or patient outcomes. Right now, medicine is not a market, it's a strange game. The most money that can be made is finding a treatment that may provide a modest increased benefit over wh…

> There is no reason that things can't be faster that "operation warp speed" all the time.

Safety? I'm not wild about new vaccines requiring emergency use authorization and indemnity for the manufacturer. It worked out fine for COVID, but this is not a model I would _want_ to replicate.

Re: What can mRNA treat next?

#80

Post by bsanr2 »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #8
bsanr2 wrote: post #3

Hopefully my height. Hello, 6 feet.

Probably a niche application. Most persons want exactly two.

I dunno. The confluence of the interests of furries and Metal Gear/Deus Ex/Cyberpunk fans might make for a lucrative market leading into the widespread adoption of Anansization.

Jokes aside, I'm surprised at the rather negative response. As a medical problem, you're looking at not just cosmetic applications, but also treatments for not-uncommon disfigurement or injury, and the phasing out of existing, quite brutal, leg-lengthening surgeries. Philosophically, you have the issue of bodily agency, and the opportunity to remove that particular source of interpersonal disparity and discontent. Scientifically, I'd think it an interesting problem, one that seemed as implacable as death, except that it isn't, because we have brute-force methods to circumvent the proscriptions of the natural process.

Figured that would be something HN would be eager to chat about.

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